Chinese purchase of Su-35

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Progress slow in developing fighter jets, Major General Zhu Heping says
General says weak foundation in sosphicated machinery is among the obstacles facing the PLA in its efforts to upgrade its home-made fighters

. weak foundation in building sophisticated machinery and a lack of innovation are major obstacles for the People's Liberation Army in upgrading its latest domestically produced jet fighters, military experts say.

Major General Zhu Heping - vice-president of the Air Force Command Academy and the grandson of the father of the Red Army, Zhu De - talked about the constraints facing the PLA in an interview with the South China Morning Post.

He said one key hindrance was the state of the country's machinery industry, even though the PLA had been upgrading to a more hi-tech force for a decade. Another problem was the lack of innovation in the industry sector.

Zhu said those 10 years, under the rule of former president Hu Jintao and former premier Wen Jiabao, had seen crucial gains made in military modernisation.

"Taking the air force as an example, we managed to take a huge step forward by replacing second-generation jet fighters with third-generation ones as the main force," he said.

Zhu said big strides had been made in developing anti-aircraft weapons and giving information technology a bigger role.

"More importantly, we saw an enormous improvement in the quality of our pilots," he said. "At present you can hardly find an officer who does not hold a bachelor's degree or higher."

More importantly, we saw an enormous improvement in the quality of our pilots. At present you can hardly find an officer who does not hold a bachelor's degree or higherHowever, Zhu said, Chinese industry had not progressed quite so rapidly. "To be honest, we've overlooked the problem of how difficult, complicated and time-consuming it is for us to upgrade the machinery industry in our country," he said.

Zhu cited as an example the fact that the air force had to buy foreign engines for home-made fighter jets.

Before President Xi Jinping went to Russia last month on his maiden overseas visit as a head of state, Beijing and Moscow signed an agreement that will see China buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets from Russia - with analysts estimating the deal to cost around US$1.56 billion.

China can make most of the parts for fourth-generation fighter jets, but falls down when it comes to the likes of the Su-35's sophisticated 117S engines.

Hong Kong-based military commentator Ma Dingsheng said having the right materials for the alloy and the proper smelting technique were preconditions for manufacturing high-quality engines - for aircraft, tanks or warships.

"Beijing could spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy the aircraft, dissect them and pore over the advanced engines inside and out before trying to copy their design," he said.

"But they are doomed to fail to overcome the predicament presented by the lack of the materials and techniques required to make them."

He said it would be hard to make significant progress in machinery production capabilities in a decade or two.

"In my opinion, it's too early to talk about innovation when China is still left in the dust by its Russian or Western counterparts in this respect," Ma said.

Veteran Macau-based PLA watcher Antony Wong Dong said innovative ideas could play a key role in technological advancement but he was not optimistic.

"Independent thinking is the last thing the current education system under the [Communist] party's leadership intends to encourage or highlight," Wong said. "As a matter of fact, this kind of education has long been an obstacle for every single kind of domestic innovation and made things even worse."

Wong said a country's level of advancement in producing sophisticated engines was a perfect yardstick for judging its general level of industrialisation.

"How can one expect the fruits of self-innovation when everybody's mindset is focused on anything but independent thinking in the country? Up to this moment, submission is still the overriding priority for millions of mainland students from kindergartens to universities," Wong said.

The PLA's Zhu said he hoped new Premier Li Keqiang could make big strides in encouraging domestic innovation
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
The part about Su-35 purchase didn't come from Zhu Heping's mouth, if you read the article carefully
 

luhai

Banned Idiot
It just occurred to me that the arms deal with Su-35 and Lada may be was attached to the energy deal China just signed with Russian. Perhaps the deal with the arms included has better terms, so that the weapons will pay for itself in natural gas in the long run. However, Russia back out of the weapons deal in the last minute for whatever the reason, and went for a energy only deal. (perhaps with pricier terms) Hence why the Chinese media reported the deal being sign with Xi in Moscow, but denied by Russia later on.

Pure speculation on my part, but made sense to me.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Progress slow in developing fighter jets, Major General Zhu Heping says
General says weak foundation in sosphicated machinery is among the obstacles facing the PLA in its efforts to upgrade its home-made fighters

. weak foundation in building sophisticated machinery and a lack of innovation are major obstacles for the People's Liberation Army in upgrading its latest domestically produced jet fighters, military experts say.

Major General Zhu Heping - vice-president of the Air Force Command Academy and the grandson of the father of the Red Army, Zhu De - talked about the constraints facing the PLA in an interview with the South China Morning Post.

He said one key hindrance was the state of the country's machinery industry, even though the PLA had been upgrading to a more hi-tech force for a decade. Another problem was the lack of innovation in the industry sector.

Zhu said those 10 years, under the rule of former president Hu Jintao and former premier Wen Jiabao, had seen crucial gains made in military modernisation.

"Taking the air force as an example, we managed to take a huge step forward by replacing second-generation jet fighters with third-generation ones as the main force," he said.

Zhu said big strides had been made in developing anti-aircraft weapons and giving information technology a bigger role.

"More importantly, we saw an enormous improvement in the quality of our pilots," he said. "At present you can hardly find an officer who does not hold a bachelor's degree or higher."

More importantly, we saw an enormous improvement in the quality of our pilots. At present you can hardly find an officer who does not hold a bachelor's degree or higherHowever, Zhu said, Chinese industry had not progressed quite so rapidly. "To be honest, we've overlooked the problem of how difficult, complicated and time-consuming it is for us to upgrade the machinery industry in our country," he said.

Zhu cited as an example the fact that the air force had to buy foreign engines for home-made fighter jets.

Before President Xi Jinping went to Russia last month on his maiden overseas visit as a head of state, Beijing and Moscow signed an agreement that will see China buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets from Russia - with analysts estimating the deal to cost around US$1.56 billion.

China can make most of the parts for fourth-generation fighter jets, but falls down when it comes to the likes of the Su-35's sophisticated 117S engines.

Hong Kong-based military commentator Ma Dingsheng said having the right materials for the alloy and the proper smelting technique were preconditions for manufacturing high-quality engines - for aircraft, tanks or warships.

"Beijing could spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy the aircraft, dissect them and pore over the advanced engines inside and out before trying to copy their design," he said.

"But they are doomed to fail to overcome the predicament presented by the lack of the materials and techniques required to make them."

He said it would be hard to make significant progress in machinery production capabilities in a decade or two.

"In my opinion, it's too early to talk about innovation when China is still left in the dust by its Russian or Western counterparts in this respect," Ma said.

Veteran Macau-based PLA watcher Antony Wong Dong said innovative ideas could play a key role in technological advancement but he was not optimistic.

"Independent thinking is the last thing the current education system under the [Communist] party's leadership intends to encourage or highlight," Wong said. "As a matter of fact, this kind of education has long been an obstacle for every single kind of domestic innovation and made things even worse."

Wong said a country's level of advancement in producing sophisticated engines was a perfect yardstick for judging its general level of industrialisation.

"How can one expect the fruits of self-innovation when everybody's mindset is focused on anything but independent thinking in the country? Up to this moment, submission is still the overriding priority for millions of mainland students from kindergartens to universities," Wong said.

The PLA's Zhu said he hoped new Premier Li Keqiang could make big strides in encouraging domestic innovation
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I agree in principle on some of the gaps in China's aviation industry specifically jet engines. It's very difficult to 'copy' engines because I think china's material science is still lacking behind Western countries or even Russia.

They need to invest more in metallurgy research and materials science to catch up. It is as simple as that. Everyone knows what makes a high bypass turbofan is not so much the design or mechanics but rather the composition of metals in the different parts.
It's kinda like Thomas Edison and the filament. Everyone knows the principle of lightbulbs even way back then but finding the right material was the hardest part. Once Edison through sheer trial and error used carbon did he become successful.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
I agree in principle on some of the gaps in China's aviation industry specifically jet engines. It's very difficult to 'copy' engines because I think china's material science is still lacking behind Western countries or even Russia.

They need to invest more in metallurgy research and materials science to catch up. It is as simple as that. Everyone knows what makes a high bypass turbofan is not so much the design or mechanics but rather the composition of metals in the different parts.
It's kinda like Thomas Edison and the filament. Everyone knows the principle of lightbulbs even way back then but finding the right material was the hardest part. Once Edison through sheer trial and error used carbon did he become successful.

China has advanced a lot, what happens is not only china has moved ahead, the other nations do move ahead too, so it is a race in which all competing nations are advancing.

Many analisys i read hear are made thinking other nations are not advancing, thinking Russia`s aircraft industry or the West have not advanced.

I am at this moment unsure if they are buying or not Su-35s, but the general zhu seems a honest guy since he is not repeating the official typical statements of communist countries where everything is rosy and beautiful and no problems or short commings are seen.
 

Engineer

Major
I agree in principle on some of the gaps in China's aviation industry specifically jet engines. It's very difficult to 'copy' engines because I think china's material science is still lacking behind Western countries or even Russia.

They need to invest more in metallurgy research and materials science to catch up. It is as simple as that. Everyone knows what makes a high bypass turbofan is not so much the design or mechanics but rather the composition of metals in the different parts.
It's kinda like Thomas Edison and the filament. Everyone knows the principle of lightbulbs even way back then but finding the right material was the hardest part. Once Edison through sheer trial and error used carbon did he become successful.

They did indeed invest a lot of money in the past decade, which is now bearing fruits. As we saw from the previous Zhuhai Airshow, there were four new types of engine completed. Then a few days ago, we saw a picture of the WS-20.

Like you have mentioned, the secret to jet engines is about production techniques and materials. These can only be obtained through trial-and-error, and cannot be obtained by looking at another engine. This is why the theory cited for purchasing 117S engines is bogus. Whether China can build an advanced jet engine or not, 117S isn't going to help the industry in anyway.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
They did indeed invest a lot of money in the past decade, which is now bearing fruits. As we saw from the previous Zhuhai Airshow, there were four new types of engine completed. Then a few days ago, we saw a picture of the WS-20.

Like you have mentioned, the secret to jet engines is about production techniques and materials. These can only be obtained through trial-and-error, and cannot be obtained by looking at another engine. This is why the theory cited for purchasing 117S engines is bogus. Whether China can build an advanced jet engine or not, 117S isn't going to help the industry in anyway.

Unless ....there is also significant knowledge transfer from Russian scientists as part of the 117S deal .. ;)

doubt it but stranger things have happend.
 
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