Chinese purchase of Su-35

A

archon

New Member
AeroEngineer said:
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As I have explained in my previous posts.

I think that IF China buys Su-35, there are only one actual reason. That is to get 117S engine for J-20A, this way J-20A can go into IOC before 2016. China sense war with Japan and knows that US has F-22A in Okinawa. 117S is the best engine China can get but the Russians will not let it go unless China buys Su-35. China aggree to buy 4, Russia insist 48. They maybe reached a deal that is 24 !!!

HOWEVER, I just visited official Chinese department of defense, and it once again DID NOT confirm this deal.
中华人民共和国国防部
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So we just have to wait a bit longer to see !!
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I shared the same though on the engine aspect in my previous post last year.
 
tphuang

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Deino said:
IMO simply since it gives access to the 117S powerplant which - at least IMO - I see as a better suited interim engine than to current AL-31FN. IMO the Su-35 is really more a politically motivated order to cover up the engine purchase. As such more Mi-171 are not necessary and the Il-476 is substituted by the Y-20 ...

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yeah, I think this is the general consensus on the Chinese forum. Again, this is not only a vote of confidence for 117S, but also says a lot about the faith PLAAF has over WS-10A project.

The claims that this is an interim solution between J-11B and J-20 in the heavy fighter jet class doesn't work for me. They would get more than 24 Su-35 if they truly needed something to compliment the multi-role J-16 during that period. This is purely for 117S
 
Engineer

Engineer

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Su-35? Lada submarines? There is little rationale for China to buy Su-35 to begin with. The deal sounds even more ridiculous when you consider Russia couldn't even get the Lada submarines working properly and had to abandon the project.
 
Blitzo

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Can they not buy 117s on its own instead of buying the whole plane?

Not sure about the russian export regulations on it.

Further, they won't be getting many engines out of 24 Su-35...
 
A

adeptitus

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If we look at the history of Su-35 and Lada SSK platform, both were avail for production over a decade ago. However the Russian AF and Navy rejected them due to performance and funding issues. It was only recently that both product's improved variants were accepted by the Russian military. In case of Lada class SSK, it was only last year that the Russian Navy finally accepted the improvements and design changes for production to continue.

If China had expressed interest in these platforms, it's probably better to buy the improved variant. Depending on how well the first batch of 24 x Su-35's go, I think there's the possibility that the Chinese side might order another batch of 24 in the future.

Consider how far the Chinese defense industry has improved over the past 20 years. Back when the Russians sold Su-27's and Kilo SSK's to China, pundits raved about how Chinese military's capabilities would improve by leaps and bounds. Today the pundits are saying that China doesn't really need the Su-35 and is only in it for the 117S engines. At one time the Russians said that they are conservative with exports to China to maintain a 20 technology gap. Today the Russians are looking to export some of their most modern hardware to China.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
In my view all this speculation is senseless and useless, since i believe that China won't buy the SU-35BM.

There are only Russian sources talking about China purchasing the SU-35BM and even according to these sources the contract hasn't been signed yet. And why has this deal not been mentioned when president Xi Jinping visited Moscow a few days back ? They even mentioned cooperation on rabbit breeding, but no mention of the SU-35BM deal. And if China wants to spend 4 billion dollars to help improve Sino-Russia relations then that money can be spend on more useful things like oil, gas, timber or even rabbit meat. The same goes with the Lada subs, untill i see them in China i will remain skeptical about these deals.

And what has changed over the past few months that would give these stories about China wanting to purchase SU-35BM more credibility that there is now a whole new discussion about it ? Nothing !!! All these Russians sources are saying is that China is getting closer and closer buying the SU-35BM but... in the end they have to admitt that there are no contracts signed.
 
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Duran

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The program discussed 'F35 vs. Su 35', and on 23:00 invited guests covered reasons about purchasing Su 35, as well as Sino-Russia's possible cooperation model in developing future air-plane.

IMHO, China purchasing Su 35 is to counter Japan's deployment of F35 and serve as a double guarantee for its J20 or J21.
 
escobar

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Russia is denying Chinese media claims that Moscow and Beijing have signed agreements to sell Russian-made arms and military technology to China, including 24 Su-35 multirole fighter jets and four Amur-class diesel submarines.

During a recent visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping to Moscow from Friday to Sunday, no discussions took place regarding “military-technical cooperation” issues, the ITAR-TASS news agency reported Monday. This was in response to an earlier report by China’s CCTV on the same day.

“The Kremlin is officially denying even discussing arms trade during Xi’s visit,” said Vasiliy Kashin, a China military specialist at the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST). “In Russia-China relations, specific arms trade contracts are almost never discussed by the top leaders, just the general approaches.”

Another defense industry source in Russia said there are strong reservations about going forward on the memorandum of understanding signed in December to explore the sale of the twin-engine Su-35s and Amur submarines to China.

China intentionally violated intellectual property right (IPR) agreements when it copied and manufactured Russia’s Su-27 fighter as the J-11B, according to Russia.

In 1995, China secured a production deal with Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed the J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. In 2006, Russia canceled the deal after 95 aircraft when it discovered China had reverse-engineered the fighter and was secretly manufacturing an indigenous copy, the J-11B, with Chinese-made avionics and engines.

There are strong suspicions China will procure the technological know-how of the Su-35 and Amur and simply produce an indigenous version.

But not all agree. Gary Li, a senior analyst at London-based IHS Fairplay, said China’s research and development have moved forward.

“It no longer will seek to directly reverse engineer everything it buys, but maybe adopt parts of the platform for other projects [and] integrate into domestic designs,” he said.

There also are concerns China wants access to the Su-35’s Saturn AL-117S engine, which is outfitted on the T-50, a prototype of Russia’s fifth-generation Sukhoi PAK FA stealth fighter.

However, Kashin said the risks of selling the Russian engine to China are negligible.

“An engine cannot be copied by obtaining a sample,” he said.

Li said he could envision Chinese aerospace engineers studying the aircraft’s engine and thrust-vectoring for future inclusion, as well as the Amur sub’s air-independent propulsion, but it will still be more than a decade before China will stop having to order engines to replace “worn-out ones,” as it has been doing with the J-11 and J-10 fighters.

“It always takes a few years before they can make a domestic alternative,” Li said.

Kashin cautions that a Chinese attempt to copy the Su-35, as they did with the Su-27, would be more difficult, “because this time, our Ukrainian ‘brothers’ cannot help them by selling the Chinese all the technology they lacked for a handful of dollars. I think the Amur situation will be generally the same.”

Ukraine has been accused of selling China former Soviet defense technologies, but it has no access to information regarding newer systems, such as the Su-35 and Amur.

“The Amur ultimately isn’t a strategic submarine, and as Russia’s interests in the Far East are not yet that ambitious, they can afford to sell them to China,” Li said. “How better to keep the U.S. pivot off their backs?”
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