Chinese purchase of Su-35

Engineer said:

This is a fallacy of

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as it provides absolutely no response to A.Man's statement. Whether Europe has passive radar or not has no relevance whatsoever to the argument that Russia is in the process of falling behind compared to China. In fact, this post of yours is full of sour grapes as you so desperately trying to put down what China can accomplished that Russia did half-arsed-ly -- that is, to build a proper stealthy air superiority fighter.

Keep in mind, Russia invited China to join the PAKFA project. China denied on the ground that Russia would have more to gain. In other words, China is confident that it has higher level of capabilities than that of Russia's. This gesture is an important one as it lets us see the reflection of reality.

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look you just claim things, and of course you never see aviation beyond nationalistic views, today Europe claims it can detect stealth aircraft, if that is the case, then speed will be the most important aspect of a fifth generation, since is clear VHF radars are making stealth obsolete, then engines like 117S are of capital importance.


Europe developed Eurofighter with supercruise and if EADS developed a radar with anti-stealth capabilities then with IR and satellite imagery killing stealth aircraft is not impossible, then speed and supercruise are of capital importance and i am sure PAKFA won`t add 2D flat nozzles since they deemed stealth is becoming obsolete.


Buying 117S potentially will allow China, which is a Russian ally catch up for that reason Russia will sell Su-35 if china and Russia agree to buy Su-35 in 2014

MiG-29 said:

look you just claim things, and of course you never see aviation beyond nationalistic views, today Europe claims it can detect stealth aircraft, if that is the case, then speed will be the most important aspect of a fifth generation, since is clear VFR radars are making stealth obsolete, then engines like 117S are of capital importance.


Europe developed Eurofighter with supercruise if EADS developed radar with anti-stealth capabilities then with IR and satellite imagery speed and supercruise are of capital importance and i am sure PAKFA won`t add 2D flat nozzles since they deemed stealth is becoming obsolete.


Buying 117S potentially will allow China, which is a Russian ally cath up for that reason Russia will sell Su-35 is china and Russia agree to buy Su-35 in 2014

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Passive radar is not new, as there long have been rumors that China and Russia are looking into it to counter the threat of Americans stealth technologies. So, it doesn't matter whether Europe is making passive radars unless the whole point of your post is just to express your sour grapes justifying why Russia didn't accomplished something to the quality of that of China.

Buying 117S engines will not enhance China's capabilities in anyway. For one, China already has WS-10 which is in the same weight class as 117S. For another, China has WS-15 in the work that will offer J-20 supercruise ability with better performance than 117S that Russia is offering. Furthermore, China has its own equivalents of 117S known as WS-10B/G. Even when you suppose that such engine type is still a few years away from deployment, 117S still wouldn't offer Chinese with extra capabilities any sooner than China developing those capabilities herself. Lastly, the most important thing in building a high performance jet engine is material science, which cannot be reverse engineered.

In short, 117S engine is useless to China. There is little to no justification as to why China should buy the Su-35.

Engineer said:

Buying 117S engines will not enhance China's capabilities in anyway. For one, China already has WS-10 which is in the same weight class as 117S. For another, China has WS-15 in the work that will offer J-20 supercruise ability with better performance than 117S that Russia is offering. Furthermore, China has its own equivalents of 117S known as WS-10B/G. .

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You just claim and claim but no evidence.


Su-35 supercruises, J-11B does not
117S in production WS-10 can not even replace old Al-31s and china depends in Russia to replace engines for its current fleet.


117 flies on PAKFA now and i can show it to you, WS-15 is just now a paper engine, at least it does not fly on J-20s.
J-31 flies with RD-33s.

Let us wait, time will tell, but Russia very likely will fly type 30 on PAKFA in 2015 operationally, and while WS-10 could fly by that time you have no evidence it will with total assurance.

i can see 117 on PAKFAs now, while you can only claim and claim and claim an claim but still i see production J-10s with Al-31s and China buying Russian engines

MiG-29 said:

You just claim and claim but no evidence.

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You once again wrongly believed me to use the same strategy as you do. Much of what I have said are facts, and facts themselves are evidences.

MiG-29 said:

Su-35 supercruises, J-11B does not

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Russia's existing fleet of Flankers doesn't supercruise either. China will have J-20 and does not need J-11B to supercruise. Pure and simple.

MiG-29 said:

117S in production WS-10 can not even replace old Al-31s and china depends in Russia to replace engines for its current fleet.

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Those aircraft flying with Al-31 will still flying with Al-31 even when there is no Russia engines for replacement. What is important is the fact that new aircraft that China puts into production uses domestic engines.

MiG-29 said:

117 flies on PAKFA now and i can show it to you, WS-15 is just now a paper engine, at least it does not fly on J-20s.
J-31 flies with RD-33s.

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Paper engine refers to an engine that is still in design stage, which WS-15 is not since WS-15's core has existed for several years already. Whether J-20 currently flies with WS-15 is not important. What is important is that WS-15 will equip J-20 before the end of this decade, providing China with capabilities can't be provide by 117S any sooner.

MiG-29 said:

Let us wait, time will tell, but Russia very likely will fly type 30 on PAKFA in 2015 operationally, and while WS-10 could fly by that time you have no evidence it will with total assurance.

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Neither do you have evidence that Type 30 will be totally satisfactory. Meanwhile, WS-10 is already in mass production and flying with China's frontline aircraft.

MiG-29 said:

i can see 117 on PAKFAs now, while you can only claim and claim and claim an claim but still i see production J-10s with Al-31s and China buying Russian engines

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You claim and claim while the fact remains latest Chinese fighter aircraft are using domestic engines and not Al-31.

MiG-29 said:

look you just claim things, and of course you never see aviation beyond nationalistic views, today Europe claims it can detect stealth aircraft, if that is the case, then speed will be the most important aspect of a fifth generation, since is clear VHF radars are making stealth obsolete, then engines like 117S are of capital importance.

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It may be the case that speed will be more important than stealth when trying to attack a Western European country, but really when exactly is China going to attack Europe? Certainly not within the next 10-20 years, if ever, and by that time China's next generation engine, the WS-15 should be ready for deployment, or at least close to it.

In other words, there really is no rush for China to get the "more powerful" 117S, since what they have is sufficient for self-defense purposes, so they can afford to wait the 5-10 years until the the WS-15 or the mature version of the WS-10A (WS-10B/G?) is ready.

MiG-29 said:

Let us wait, time will tell, but Russia very likely will fly type 30 on PAKFA in 2015 operationally, and while WS-10 could fly by that time you have no evidence it will with total assurance.

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The WS-10 is already, "flying" now, and has been for a while. This thread and others are full of images of it flying. Why do you keep saying things like, "The WS-10 could/might/may fly by _______ time."?

Curious George said:

It may be the case that speed will be more important than stealth when trying to attack a Western European country, but really when exactly is China going to attack Europe? Certainly not within the next 10-20 years, if ever, and by that time China's next generation engine, the WS-15 should be ready for deployment, or at least close to it.

In other words, there really is no rush for China to get the "more powerful" 117S, since what they have is sufficient for self-defense purposes, so they can afford to wait the 5-10 years until the the WS-15 or the mature version of the WS-10A (WS-10B/G?) is ready.

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From what I understand, he says that speed is more important because he thinks that stealth is already becoming obsolete, in that future dogfights will again rely more on classic yanking and banking than stealthy surprise attacks at BVR. He isn't referring to speed as a way to reach distant targets.

MiG-29 said:

...and while WS-10 could fly by that time you have no evidence it will with total assurance....

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Huh? WS-10 has been in mass production since 2010. All J-11B (other than the very first 20) use WS-10. J-11B/BS/BH/BSH fly with WS-10. Naval BH/BSH use the WS-10H.

Here are some PLAAF in service J-11B/BS with WS-10 : , ,
PLANAF : , , ,

A.Man said:

Mr. Mig-29, they just let you to have something to talk about for now. You need to move on.
Mr. Mig-29, you and Su-35 are just lost Legends. Since J-20 & J-31 are ahead of Fat-Fart, the T-50 will never be a legend. Next time you wake up, China's GDP has past the United States & South Korea is larger than your motherland, Russia. The great nation, the Soviet Union has gone with the wind.

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As I have stated before I start liking A.Man more and more. Hi, A.Man, you're now a man, no longer a boy.

... and even a few J-15 are powered by the WS-10 !

MiG-29 said:

You just claim and claim but no evidence.
Su-35 supercruises, J-11B does not
117S in production WS-10 can not even replace old Al-31s and china depends in Russia to replace engines for its current fleet.
117 flies on PAKFA now and i can show it to you, WS-15 is just now a paper engine, at least it does not fly on J-20s.
J-31 flies with RD-33s.
Let us wait, time will tell, but Russia very likely will fly type 30 on PAKFA in 2015 operationally, and while WS-10 could fly by that time you have no evidence it will with total assurance.
i can see 117 on PAKFAs now, while you can only claim and claim and claim an claim but still i see production J-10s with Al-31s and China buying Russian engines

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Right now, Su35 can only supercruise in the imagination of Russian arms salesmen. In the real world, it lost to old generation F16 in Indonesia and even old Su30 in India & yet to find any buyers.
All we know right now is 117S can produce spectacular fireworks, literally, when fitted on pakfa. The rest is again just empty claims by Russian salesmen. No wonder they brought 117S to Zhuhai begging for sales and again left empty handed.