Chinese purchase of Su-35

Engineer

Major
wow so then old prototypes uhmm so they prefered to use old aircraft than new aircraft with higher thrust, i see so they went for test a already proven engine to test first on a carrier than their new J-15s with WS-10s, logic, proven designs and reliable are first option

Yes, they are old prototypes as proven by the serial numbers 552 and 553 on those aircraft. They were built earlier so naturally they go on the carrier earlier. Flying J-15 with Al-31s first does not prove WS-10 is unreliable.

you always test the more reliable and proven design, is not coincidence the J-15/Su-33 used Al-31s otherwise the WS-10s would have been used first
That does not mean WS-10 unreliable in anyway. Whether you accept it or not, WS-10 is already in production.
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Yes, they are old prototypes as proven by the serial numbers 552 and 553 on those aircraft. They were built earlier so naturally they go on the carrier earlier. Flying with Al-31 first is not a proof of your theory that WS-10 is unreliable and not ready for production.

Uhmm so 410 new engines do not mean nothing, of course you excuse was for old aircraft, you get new J-10 with Al-31s brand new recently build your excuse later they will use, you get J-15s flying with Al-31 first because the Al-31 is more reliable for a test, specially first take off from a carrier, excuse from you first Su-33 built in China.


You are full of excuses, ranging from J-10Bs with Al-31s can not be fitted with WS-10, which is a full of contradictions since no company will increase expenses by designing a very different J-10B with Al-31 from one J-10B with WS-10.

Of course pure excuses.


Engineers use logistics the J-10B with WS-10 must be easily re-engine with Al-31s, you are full of excuses to justify the chinese needs for new Al-31s and the fact J-10s still use Al-31 and tested a Su-33 from the chinese carrier with Al-31 due to lower risk and reliability than with WS-10s
 
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A.Man

Major
yes they are powered with AL-31s it is obvious, but unless the new Su-33/J-15 fly with WS-10 in the coming years i can that the use of a Su-33 with Al-31 is a result of higher reliability.

Specially since you say it has more power, strange the J-15/Su-33 was first flown with AL-31s

Mr. Mig-29, they just let you to have something to talk about for now. You need to move on.
Mr. Mig-29, you and Su-35 are just lost Legends. Since J-20 & J-31 are ahead of Fat-Fart, the T-50 will never be a legend. Next time you wake up, China's GDP has past the United States & South Korea is larger than your motherland, Russia. The great nation, the Soviet Union has gone with the wind.
 

Engineer

Major
Russia took 117S to Zhuhai recently but again sale. So they are very eager to sell to China.
But 117S has very poor reliability. It had a very embarrassing explosion on a T50 recently.
I don't think they can sell any until they fix the reliability at least.

Exactly.
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said the followings:
俄罗斯希望向中国出口117S大推力发动机

  新浪航空珠海航展前方13日报道:俄罗斯联合发动机集团希望向中国出口新型117S军用大推力发动机,但至今为止中国军方还没有与之接触。


  俄罗斯联合发动机公司(UEC)首次在珠海航展上展出了其生产的先进军用大推力发动机117S。该公司的技术专家向新浪航空表示,他们非常有兴趣向中国出口117S型发动机,但遗憾的是至今为止中国军方还没有与他们接触。

  117S是俄罗斯联合发动机集团旗下的重要产品,也是俄罗斯现役最先进的Su-35超侧卫战机所采用的发动机。117采用了矢量喷口,最大推力 14.5吨,不开加力时推力达到8.8吨,全寿命周期达4000小时,比原型号AL-31FP提高了两倍。该公司技术专家同时向新浪航空表示,这是出口型 117S的数据,俄罗斯空军所订购的117S性能数据要更好些。

  117S是在AL-31的基础上深化改进而来,最大推力比AL-31F增加了16%,使用寿命也得到了延长。由于其优异的性能,俄罗斯空军已经订购了该型发动机,并且允许其随同Su-35S战机一同出口。

  从中航工业的展台看,我国自行研制的太行军用发动机推力只有12.5吨左右。但中航集团的副总经理曾经证实,太行发动机存在改进型号。
The bold part says that Russia engine maker hopes to export its 117S engine to China, but China has not respond to the offer.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Mr. Mig-29, they just let you to have something to talk about for now. You need to move on.
Mr. Mig-29, you and Su-35 are just lost Legends. Since J-20 & J-31 are ahead of Fat-Fart, the T-50 will never be a legend. Next time you wake up, China's GDP has past the United States & South Korea is larger than your motherland, Russia. The great nation, the Soviet Union has gone with the wind.

Cassidian, the defence and security division of EADS, has developed what is known as "passive radar" that can locate even difficult-to-detect flying objects such as stealth aircraft and that itself is practically undetectable. In contrast to conventional radar, passive radar doesn't emit any radiation, but instead analyses radiation reflections from other emitters, such as radio and television stations, to detect objects.
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China has recently tested its stealth fighter jet. The tests went well, although a question remains as to why Chinese engineers still use the previously popular technology. The stealth technology has been repeatedly proved ineffective experimentally.

It has long been known that the aircraft survivability in combat can be provided not only through armored plates installed on the body of the aircraft. It is possible to achieve the desired goal by duplicating its control systems, raising the speed and ensuring its invisibility - i.e. by masquerading aircraft against the earth and the sky. However, one can not say that it is the aviation industry that pays special attention to camouflage. For example, on the eve of World War II, Soviet fighter aircraft would be painted blue on the bottom, and green on the top. These colors used to be considered as camouflage.

However, Soviet aircraft used to be varnished. Therefore, fighter jets were shining like candy in the sky and could be seen very well. SB bombers used to be colored with silvery paint. The losses of the USSR in aircraft on 22 June 1941 were not surprising at all. Combat experience made engineers use speckled and striped camouflage with matte surface, and this form of protective coloration became the commonplace technology of passive protection.

Print version Font Size Send to friendThe protection was useless against enemy radars, of course. The British came up with a different idea. They offered to drop strips of metal foil from airplanes, with the length of the strips corresponding to the length of enemy radar radiation. A bright spot would thus be displayed on the screen instead of separate pixels. This technology would give really hard times to air defense forces. After all, such a cloud on the screen could be created by both one and hundreds of aircraft at the same time.

The technology to protect aircraft from radars appeared about 30 years ago, when U.S. intelligence came across an article penned by the Russian physicist Pyotr Ufimtsev. The article said that the aircraft of the "flying wing" type made of certain materials, with specially profiled surfaces and appropriately colored, could turn out to be virtually invisible to radar. US military showed great interest in the work, and the United States decided to build and test such an airplane.

The Americans had all opportunities for that. During that time, the Pentagon was developing a program to create a new generation of aircraft - a high-altitude spy plane and a high-altitude interceptor. The aircraft was supposed to be out of reach to enemy's means of detection and destruction. In the mid-1970s, the U.S. Air Force received the first-class spy plane SR-71, which was peculiar for its unusual aerodynamic shape and special paint to reduce the radar visibility of the aircraft.

There is information saying that on the aircraft of this type, Soviet missile engineers produced more than a thousand of S-75 anti-aircraft missiles, but none of those planes had ever been downed! Encouraged with their success, the Americans moved on and began to develop new types of invisible aircraft based on the ideas of the Russian physicist. The project became known as "stealth" technology.

However, the attempts to create the "stealth aircraft" were not bringing any results for a long time. Only 20 years ago, the U.S. showed the world a miracle of defense technology. The aircraft looked like a bat or an alien combat aircraft in two modifications at once: F-117 fighter-bomber and B-2 strategic bomber. The new bomber planes were used in the war against Iraq. A little later, stealth fighter F-22 went into operation.

Outwardly, the F-117 was similar to the flying wing in a span of 13.2 meters. Except for the special shape, the entire design of the aircraft was developed with the best possible use of radar-absorbing materials that reduced the level of signals the aircraft was reflecting.

The flying and technical qualities of the F-117 are not the best in the world, to put it mildly.

However, the whole stealth technology was designed for the use of S-band enemy radars, for which these "invisible" aircraft are really hard to notice. However, Russia, and air defense forces of other countries now have VHF-band radars for which it does not matter whether it is a "stealth" or a normal plane.The news of the invisibility of stealth planes for only one type of radar caused a scandal in the U.S. government. The development of stealth aircraft cost billions of dollars, and it turned out that their combat effectiveness could be even lower than that of older aircraft.

However, it seems that the problem has not reached military organizations of all countries. Recently, news agencies reported that a prototype of the Chinese J-31 fighter, developed by AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Corporation took off successfully. The flight took place on October 31, 2012, lasted for about 10 minutes and ended with a successful landing.

The J-31 (J-21/F-60) is a second Chinese fighter made with the use of stealth technology. It was developed in record time - in only 19 months. In contrast to J-20, the J-31 is smaller and probably cheaper than the J-20. It can become a very popular aircraft in the arms market. Chinese aircraft designers did not hesitate to borrow US design solutions that had been tested on F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters.

Experts note that the wings, nose cone, air intakes and cockpit canopy of the J-31 almost completely reproduce the contours of similar parts of the aforementioned U.S. aircraft. This is probably the result of the work of Chinese intelligence. In particular, there was a scandal in the United States in 2009 connected with the theft of drawings from six American aerospace contractors, including those involved in the development of the F-35 fighter.

For the time being, it just so happens that the Chinese fighter will compete on the international arms market with more simple and cheap modifications of Russia's Su-27 and MiG-29, rather than with the complex and expensive F-35. Currently, the Chinese have quite modern electronic equipment, including phased antenna array radar stations.

The situation with modern jet engines of Chinese development is more complicated, although China has some progress in building its own digital control engines. The J-31 has two of them, and most likely, they are either Russian RD-93 engines, which China bought from Russia, or their Chinese copy WS-13. The J-31 has a wingspan of about 11.5 meters, which means that the plane is smaller than the American F-22.

The "Chinese miracle" may have some commercial success in the arms market, but the real value of such military aircraft today is questionable. The growing number of satellites in Earth's orbit makes it easy to detect any number of any type of aircraft from space to subsequently destroy them.
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[video=youtube;u3vQfh-QwwQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3vQfh-QwwQ&feature=player_embedded[/video]The meeting of wavelengths between radar and aircraft causes resonation between the two, significantly raising an aircraft's reflection in the radar spectrum, making it much more visible. VHF radar has been incorporated into the Russian military's 1L119 Nebo SVU, its first VHF-band active electronically steered array (AESA); although detailed analysis of this vehicle-mounted array, Russian sources report it has achieved excellent results in spotting stealth aircraft.
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
What are content the talks between China and Russia about Su-35 i doubt you or me or any of us knows what Pogosyan has talked to China.

The article just reflects the point of view of Pravda but also reflects the concerns some people in Russia have about the sale of Su-35 to China

Like I said, that's a very interesting view from a salesman, it is not very productive if you insults your potential customers while trying to push your sale. Especially so, if your potential customers can make the same item just as good on their own, for what you are trying to pushing.

Welcome to my shop!!!!, hey you!!! Hands off the merchandise, you might dirty it!!!! why would I want to sell you that? But please buy my item.
 

jackliu

Banned Idiot
2jtjl4.jpg

it is very hilarious you said Al-31s are pure replacement engines when the latest Su-33/J-15 uses Al-31 wow not for replacement for sure

So... can you please tell me what is the topic of this trend? Last time I check it is "Chinese purchase of Su-35" what does AL-31 have to do with this?

Let me guess.... you want to point out whatever ways in which Chinese are inferior than Russians to make yourself feel better, and by extension support your false claim that China wants to buy SU-35. You sound like the "free media" trying to connect 9/11 with Saddam Hussan.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Mr. Mig-29, they just let you to have something to talk about for now. You need to move on.
Mr. Mig-29, you and Su-35 are just lost Legends. Since J-20 & J-31 are ahead of Fat-Fart, the T-50 will never be a legend. Next time you wake up, China's GDP has past the United States & South Korea is larger than your motherland, Russia. The great nation, the Soviet Union has gone with the wind.

That's easier said than done. Russian fanboys are having an incredibly hard time accepting the fall of their arms technologies.
The obsession with this Su35 rumor has more to do with pride than the monetary value of any sale. It helps them to avoid facing the fact how much their arms technologies have fallen relatively to China.
 

Engineer

Major
Uhmm so 410 new engines do not mean nothing, of course you excuse was for old aircraft, you get new J-10 with Al-31s brand new recently build your excuse later they will use, you get J-15s flying with Al-31 first because the Al-31 is more reliable for a test, specially first take off from a carrier, excuse from you first Su-33 built in China.

You are full of excuses, ranging from J-10Bs with Al-31s can not be fitted with WS-10, which is a full of contradictions since no company will increase expenses by designing a very different J-10B with Al-31 from one J-10B with WS-10.

Of course pure excuses.


Engineers use logistics the J-10B with WS-10 must be easily re-engine with Al-31s, you are full of excuses to justify the chinese needs for new Al-31s and the fact J-10s still use Al-31 and tested a Su-33 from the chinese carrier with Al-31 due to lower risk and reliability than with WS-10s

I am not you, I do not need to make excuses. Calling my statements excuses does not make my statements any less true, unless you provide evidences showing my statements to be inaccurate. We both know that you cannot. Let us look at facts and analyze the excuses you made instead.

Fact number one: China itself said it is not buying the Su-35. This absolutely destroys your fantasy about China's reliance on Russia, so you came up with the excuse that China requires 117S engines.

Fact number two: China does not want the 117S either as it already has the WS-10 series engines and soon the WS-15. You then came up with the excuse that WS-10 is not in production.

Fact number three: WS-10 series of engines is already in production. Your are unable to accept this fact, so your next excuse is to claim that J-10 and J-11 still need Russian engines.

Fact number four: New versions of J-10 and J-11 derivatives are already flying with WS-10 series of engines. Specifically, they are J-10B, J-11B, J-15 and J-16. We even have pictorial evidences to prove it, but you came up with another excuse to justify your wrong position as usual. The excuse you used this time is that China still buys and flies Russian engines for these two types of aircraft.

Fact number five: Aircraft using one engine type cannot be fitted with another engine type. In other words, J-10A cannot be fitted with WS-10A. Likewise, both J-11/J-11A cannot be fitted with WS-10. Your excuse is to first claim WS-10A is designed to replace Al-31 and that both engine types can be interchanged easily. None of these claims are backed up by facts and remain solely your own opinions.

Fact number six: China has lost much dependencies on Russian engines on its fight aircraft, the evidence of which is that latest aircraft prototypes built by China are all using WS-10 series of engines. You cannot deny this fact, so your excuse is to say WS-10 is not reliable as there are prototypes still using Al-31.

The last excuse of yours is to justify your excuse number five, which is to justify excuse number four, etcetera, etcetera, with the intention of justifying why China wants the Su-35 which China actually doesn't want. You have no way in supporting your own statements and you are now angry at how I repeatedly poked holes in your arguments. So, you accused me of making excuses instead, wrongly believing I am using the same strategy as you do.
 
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Engineer

Major
Cassidian, the defence and security division of EADS, has developed what is known as "passive radar" that can locate even difficult-to-detect flying objects such as stealth aircraft and that itself is practically undetectable. In contrast to conventional radar, passive radar doesn't emit any radiation, but instead analyses radiation reflections from other emitters, such as radio and television stations, to detect objects.
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China has recently tested its stealth fighter jet. The tests went well, although a question remains as to why Chinese engineers still use the previously popular technology. The stealth technology has been repeatedly proved ineffective experimentally.

It has long been known that the aircraft survivability in combat can be provided not only through armored plates installed on the body of the aircraft. It is possible to achieve the desired goal by duplicating its control systems, raising the speed and ensuring its invisibility - i.e. by masquerading aircraft against the earth and the sky. However, one can not say that it is the aviation industry that pays special attention to camouflage. For example, on the eve of World War II, Soviet fighter aircraft would be painted blue on the bottom, and green on the top. These colors used to be considered as camouflage.

However, Soviet aircraft used to be varnished. Therefore, fighter jets were shining like candy in the sky and could be seen very well. SB bombers used to be colored with silvery paint. The losses of the USSR in aircraft on 22 June 1941 were not surprising at all. Combat experience made engineers use speckled and striped camouflage with matte surface, and this form of protective coloration became the commonplace technology of passive protection.

Print version Font Size Send to friendThe protection was useless against enemy radars, of course. The British came up with a different idea. They offered to drop strips of metal foil from airplanes, with the length of the strips corresponding to the length of enemy radar radiation. A bright spot would thus be displayed on the screen instead of separate pixels. This technology would give really hard times to air defense forces. After all, such a cloud on the screen could be created by both one and hundreds of aircraft at the same time.

The technology to protect aircraft from radars appeared about 30 years ago, when U.S. intelligence came across an article penned by the Russian physicist Pyotr Ufimtsev. The article said that the aircraft of the "flying wing" type made of certain materials, with specially profiled surfaces and appropriately colored, could turn out to be virtually invisible to radar. US military showed great interest in the work, and the United States decided to build and test such an airplane.

The Americans had all opportunities for that. During that time, the Pentagon was developing a program to create a new generation of aircraft - a high-altitude spy plane and a high-altitude interceptor. The aircraft was supposed to be out of reach to enemy's means of detection and destruction. In the mid-1970s, the U.S. Air Force received the first-class spy plane SR-71, which was peculiar for its unusual aerodynamic shape and special paint to reduce the radar visibility of the aircraft.

There is information saying that on the aircraft of this type, Soviet missile engineers produced more than a thousand of S-75 anti-aircraft missiles, but none of those planes had ever been downed! Encouraged with their success, the Americans moved on and began to develop new types of invisible aircraft based on the ideas of the Russian physicist. The project became known as "stealth" technology.

However, the attempts to create the "stealth aircraft" were not bringing any results for a long time. Only 20 years ago, the U.S. showed the world a miracle of defense technology. The aircraft looked like a bat or an alien combat aircraft in two modifications at once: F-117 fighter-bomber and B-2 strategic bomber. The new bomber planes were used in the war against Iraq. A little later, stealth fighter F-22 went into operation.

Outwardly, the F-117 was similar to the flying wing in a span of 13.2 meters. Except for the special shape, the entire design of the aircraft was developed with the best possible use of radar-absorbing materials that reduced the level of signals the aircraft was reflecting.

The flying and technical qualities of the F-117 are not the best in the world, to put it mildly.

However, the whole stealth technology was designed for the use of S-band enemy radars, for which these "invisible" aircraft are really hard to notice. However, Russia, and air defense forces of other countries now have VHF-band radars for which it does not matter whether it is a "stealth" or a normal plane.The news of the invisibility of stealth planes for only one type of radar caused a scandal in the U.S. government. The development of stealth aircraft cost billions of dollars, and it turned out that their combat effectiveness could be even lower than that of older aircraft.

However, it seems that the problem has not reached military organizations of all countries. Recently, news agencies reported that a prototype of the Chinese J-31 fighter, developed by AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Corporation took off successfully. The flight took place on October 31, 2012, lasted for about 10 minutes and ended with a successful landing.

The J-31 (J-21/F-60) is a second Chinese fighter made with the use of stealth technology. It was developed in record time - in only 19 months. In contrast to J-20, the J-31 is smaller and probably cheaper than the J-20. It can become a very popular aircraft in the arms market. Chinese aircraft designers did not hesitate to borrow US design solutions that had been tested on F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters.

Experts note that the wings, nose cone, air intakes and cockpit canopy of the J-31 almost completely reproduce the contours of similar parts of the aforementioned U.S. aircraft. This is probably the result of the work of Chinese intelligence. In particular, there was a scandal in the United States in 2009 connected with the theft of drawings from six American aerospace contractors, including those involved in the development of the F-35 fighter.

For the time being, it just so happens that the Chinese fighter will compete on the international arms market with more simple and cheap modifications of Russia's Su-27 and MiG-29, rather than with the complex and expensive F-35. Currently, the Chinese have quite modern electronic equipment, including phased antenna array radar stations.

The situation with modern jet engines of Chinese development is more complicated, although China has some progress in building its own digital control engines. The J-31 has two of them, and most likely, they are either Russian RD-93 engines, which China bought from Russia, or their Chinese copy WS-13. The J-31 has a wingspan of about 11.5 meters, which means that the plane is smaller than the American F-22.

The "Chinese miracle" may have some commercial success in the arms market, but the real value of such military aircraft today is questionable. The growing number of satellites in Earth's orbit makes it easy to detect any number of any type of aircraft from space to subsequently destroy them.
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The meeting of wavelengths between radar and aircraft causes resonation between the two, significantly raising an aircraft's reflection in the radar spectrum, making it much more visible. VHF radar has been incorporated into the Russian military's 1L119 Nebo SVU, its first VHF-band active electronically steered array (AESA); although detailed analysis of this vehicle-mounted array, Russian sources report it has achieved excellent results in spotting stealth aircraft.
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This is a fallacy of
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as it provides absolutely no response to A.Man's statement. Whether Europe has passive radar or not has no relevance whatsoever to the argument that Russia is in the process of falling behind compared to China. In fact, this post of yours is full of sour grapes as you so desperately trying to put down what China can accomplished that Russia did half-arsed-ly -- that is, to build a proper stealthy air superiority fighter.

Keep in mind, Russia invited China to join the PAKFA project. China denied on the ground that Russia would have more to gain. In other words, China is confident that it has higher level of capabilities than that of Russia's. This gesture is an important one as it lets us see the reflection of reality.
 
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