Chinese purchase of Su-35

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jackliu

Banned Idiot
MiG-29 said:
China still buys Al-31F

see


In February China bought 140 AL-31 engines for the SU 27/30 fighter jets, and for its domestically designed fighter planes, worth $700 million.Russian military exports in 2013 amounted to $13 billion, with 15 percent being exports to China

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see

Beijing is interested in buying Russia's new Su-35 multirole fighter, according to the President of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Mikhail Pogosyan. **"The Chinese are showing interest in this jet. But we have agreements that we disclose information only upon reaching actual agreements. So, I am not going to comment on the pace of negotiations," Pogosyan said at the China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai.
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No one said China is not buying AL-31, so it is pointless to post that first link. Your second link is very funny, so Mikhail Pogosyan says Chinese are interest in it, but I am not going to talk about this because the Chinese don't want us to talk about it... but since I am talking about this right now, that means I am doing what the Chinese tell me not to do.....

Yeah.. right, good luck.
 
K

kroko

Senior Member
I find it hard to believe that after developing 2 stealth fighter jets, china would go back and buy a foreign 30-year old design unstealth fighter. It makes no sense. It would compete with J-20.

I can imagine china buying 117 engines (its very possible that WS-15 is having considerable development problems, when was the last time we heard of it?) but thats no reason alone to buy su-35. Nor i dont think it has to. China buys Al-31 engines, but it doesnt buy russian planes.
 
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mack8

Junior Member
I don't understand why some peoples behave like they've seen the antichrist or something whenever this rumoured Su-35 deal/purchase negotiation by China is discussed. The J-20 and (hopefully) J-31, won't reach any realistic IOC before late second half of this decade, meenwhile Su-35 is a perfect capability gap filler. Several dousins of them can be in service before 2018, and despite what some folks say, i believe it's a great aircraft, probably on par and even better than ANY 4+gen out there, and again , with all due respect , but it's a quantum leap in capability compared to J-11B. I have yet to see proof that J-11B or J-16 has an ESA radar, and probably J-16s won't be available in numbers before the middle of this decade ( it's more like a MR fighter anyway , not a dedicated air superiority one)

I don't understand why this anti-russian fervor of some folks, and if they are actually chinese , i don't see how their attitude serves or represents China to be honest. Don't forget russian aircraft and technology , with it's good and bad like everything else is at the base of China's amazing advances in the last 20 years. The west dumped China after 1989 ( probably because they were scared at the pace of China's advancement). I also feel the same for some russian folks fostering and pushing forward anti-chinese sentiments. Strangely , none of this seems to come for the alleged victims of "copying", like Sukhoi or other corporations, to my knowledge anyway. Makes you wonder who's interests those anti-chinese journalists and bloggers they serve. China and Russia must work together , and continue to foster mutually beneficial collaboration in all spheres. Most of all, both have one common enemy. If they blink, they will be destroyed.
 
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MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
kroko said:
I find it hard to believe that after developing 2 stealth fighter jets, china would go back and buy a foreign 30-year old design unstealth fighter. It makes no sense. It would compete with J-20.

I can imagine china buying 117 engines (its very possible that WS-15 is having considerable development problems, when was the last time we heard of it?) but thats no reason alone to buy su-35. Nor i dont think it has to. China buys Al-31 engines, but it doesnt buy russian planes.
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At this moment nothing is certain, definitively they are in talks, at least the Russians are offering the Su-35.


But if you want to know why i think they need 117S engines, is very simple.

New IRST systems have a 120-100km of range and an engine without supercruise can be detected pretty much at very long range these days, Rafale is said to have a 120-130km detecting range with its IRST.


Airborne radars also have increased range, Irbis can detect a F-15C at a range of 400-350km so a 100-80km range of detection for a F-35/J-20 type of target is possible.


Both Cassidian and russian companies claim to have developed anti-stealth capabilities so a supercruising machine will be handy, 117S allows for supercruise and reduces IRST detection by not using afterburner.
TVC will reduce the J-20`s aerodynamic control deflection therefore its RCS will reduce, without it, it will have a larger RCS

So pretty much stealth is also dependant on Supercruise
 
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L

Lion

Senior Member
mack8 said:
I don't understand why some peoples behave like they've seen the antichrist or something whenever this rumoured Su-35 deal/purchase negotiation by China is discussed. The J-20 and (hopefully) J-31, won't reach any realistic IOC before late second half of this decade, meenwhile Su-35 is a perfect capability gap filler. Several dousins of them can be in service before 2018, and despite what some folks say, i believe it's a great aircraft, probably on par and even better than ANY 4+gen out there, and again , with all due respect , but it's a quantum leap in capability compared to J-11B. I have yet to see proof that J-11B or J-16 has an ESA radar, and probably J-16s won't be available in numbers before the middle of this decade ( it's more like a MR fighter anyway , not a dedicated air superiority one)

I don't understand why this anti-russian fervor of some folks, and if they are actually chinese , i don't see how their attitude serves or represents China to be honest. Don't forget russian aircraft and technology , with it's good and bad like everything else is at the base of China's amazing advances in the last 20 years. The west dumped China after 1989 ( probably because they were scared at the pace of China's advancement). I also feel the same for some russian folks fostering and pushing forward anti-chinese sentiments. Strangely , none of this seems to come for the alleged victims of "copying", like Sukhoi or other corporations, to my knowledge anyway. Makes you wonder who's interests those anti-chinese journalists and bloggers they serve. China and Russia must work together , and continue to foster mutually beneficial collaboration in all spheres. Most of all, both have one common enemy. If they blink, they will be destroyed.
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Because Russia could not offer competitive product, going for Su-35 will be going backward of China technology. if it is so wonderful, why it has not achieved a single sale? Also look at the way how those Russia put forward those news, full of nationalism and no regards of others. Telling how wonderful their product is and how other are just trash. You trying to treat a potential customer in this way? Then forget it.
The Russian are so full of themselves that they think an international contract that signed can just be ignored and change to whatever term she deemed?

And don't forget, when Russia is in dirt financial crisis. It is the Chinese money that keep their project and war machine alive. Chinese don't owe Russian anything. For example, will be the SU-30. This project is entirely funded by Chinese to be completed.
 
K

kroko

Senior Member
mack8 said:
I don't understand why some peoples behave like they've seen the antichrist or something whenever this rumoured Su-35 deal/purchase negotiation by China is discussed. The J-20 and (hopefully) J-31, won't reach any realistic IOC before late second half of this decade, meenwhile Su-35 is a perfect capability gap filler. Several dousins of them can be in service before 2018, and despite what some folks say, i believe it's a great aircraft, probably on par and even better than ANY 4+gen out there, and again , with all due respect , but it's a quantum leap in capability compared to J-11B. I have yet to see proof that J-11B or J-16 has an ESA radar, and probably J-16s won't be available in numbers before the middle of this decade ( it's more like a MR fighter anyway , not a dedicated air superiority one)

I don't understand why this anti-russian fervor of some folks, and if they are actually chinese , i don't see how their attitude serves or represents China to be honest. Don't forget russian aircraft and technology , with it's good and bad like everything else is at the base of China's amazing advances in the last 20 years. The west dumped China after 1989 ( probably because they were scared at the pace of China's advancement). I also feel the same for some russian folks fostering and pushing forward anti-chinese sentiments. Strangely , none of this seems to come for the alleged victims of "copying", like Sukhoi or other corporations, to my knowledge anyway. Makes you wonder who's interests those anti-chinese journalists and bloggers they serve. China and Russia must work together , and continue to foster mutually beneficial collaboration in all spheres. Most of all, both have one common enemy. If they blink, they will be destroyed.
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SU-35 is still an Su-27 derivative. China has entered the stealth fighters era. Why would it want to go back? China doesnt have any sense of urgency to get gap filler fighters.

OT
As for sentiments, they are natural for both chinese and russians. China is much more richer than russia, and growing much faster than russia. In the foreseeable future it could approach russia´s GDP per capita, despite having 10 times its population. Its natural that chinese want to get technologicaly ahead of russia, simply because their economic status demands it. it wouldnt be so if russia had the same economy as china.

As for russians, its also a natural sentiment to be resentful for the fact that china surpassed them after many decades of total superiority over china. In a sense, china replaced the USSR as "the other" superpower (not true, but still thats how some people see it). Thats why some want to play down china. However some russians respect and even admire china´s achivements, seeing them as what russia could have been if the soviet era reforms had worked.

As for a common enemy, they dont have one. But i think that they have learned to live side-by-side peacefully and with good relations. Of course, their relationship with the US is different, for a variety of reasons but partially because the US is the world´s sole superpower and doesnt want rivals (who wants?)

end OT
 
J

jackliu

Banned Idiot
mack8 said:
I don't understand why some peoples behave like they've seen the antichrist or something whenever this rumoured Su-35 deal/purchase negotiation by China is discussed. The J-20 and (hopefully) J-31, won't reach any realistic IOC before late second half of this decade, meenwhile Su-35 is a perfect capability gap filler. Several dousins of them can be in service before 2018, and despite what some folks say, i believe it's a great aircraft, probably on par and even better than ANY 4+gen out there, and again , with all due respect , but it's a quantum leap in capability compared to J-11B. I have yet to see proof that J-11B or J-16 has an ESA radar, and probably J-16s won't be available in numbers before the middle of this decade ( it's more like a MR fighter anyway , not a dedicated air superiority one)

I don't understand why this anti-russian fervor of some folks, and if they are actually chinese , i don't see how their attitude serves or represents China to be honest. Don't forget russian aircraft and technology , with it's good and bad like everything else is at the base of China's amazing advances in the last 20 years. The west dumped China after 1989 ( probably because they were scared at the pace of China's advancement). I also feel the same for some russian folks fostering and pushing forward anti-chinese sentiments. Strangely , none of this seems to come for the alleged victims of "copying", like Sukhoi or other corporations, to my knowledge anyway. Makes you wonder who's interests those anti-chinese journalists and bloggers they serve. China and Russia must work together , and continue to foster mutually beneficial collaboration in all spheres. Most of all, both have one common enemy. If they blink, they will be destroyed.
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What a funny post, I am not even going to respond to your baiting of anti-Russian or Anti-Chinese fervor or whatever you like to call it. Let us examine the facts.

And what is this quantum leap are you talking about? The difference between J-11B which has been in service for than 5 years, vs the still in development SU-35 is not a quantum leap, if anything you should compare aircraft that are still in developments to each other, for example J-10B, with DSI intake and AESA radar. How much of quantum leap does Su-35 have over that? And you talk about J-16 being ready in the middle of the decade, guess what? If China orders Su-35 today, it will also be delivered in the middle of this decade. It is not like two dozen Su-35 are sitting pretty in some empty hanger and ready to be handed over tomorrow.

There is nothing Russia have over China that is so call "quantum leap" in technology, but if you were posting this in 2002, then you would right on the money, but you are a decade too late.

And lastly, interestingly no one have responded to my post about the problem of logistic. Why would China trouble itself by purchase so few aircraft and create a whole new logistic nightmare? And when you purchase Su-35, you have to buy all Russian weapons, why would China do that when their own weapons are just as capable?

As for Russia helped China's developing in the 1990s, it was a mutually beneficial relationship, Russia needed the money, China needed the technology, both side got what they paid for. And you can't blame China for studying and learning to develop their own. And what is this about China and Russia work together? We are talking about SU-35, this have nothing to do with geopolitical situation, whatever China buy Su-35 or not, it won't make any impact whatsoever on China-Russia relationship. Weapon sales hardly impact how both nation sees each other on the world stage.
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
mack8 said:
I don't understand why some peoples behave like they've seen the antichrist or something whenever this rumoured Su-35 deal/purchase negotiation by China is discussed. The J-20 and (hopefully) J-31, won't reach any realistic IOC before late second half of this decade, meenwhile Su-35 is a perfect capability gap filler. Several dousins of them can be in service before 2018, and despite what some folks say, i believe it's a great aircraft, probably on par and even better than ANY 4+gen out there, and again , with all due respect , but it's a quantum leap in capability compared to J-11B. I have yet to see proof that J-11B or J-16 has an ESA radar, and probably J-16s won't be available in numbers before the middle of this decade ( it's more like a MR fighter anyway , not a dedicated air superiority one)
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Some of us are so detested by the myth because
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and yet some keep on repeating the lies that China wants the Su-35. If you were us, you would be annoyed as well.

China has no need for any part of the Su-35. China's avionics are more advanced than those of Russia, and China's AESA radar already flew on J-10B. Even when we consider engines, China's WS-15 is a true F-119's equivalent while Russia's 117S is just a deep modification of Al-31F. What's more, Su-35 cannot use Chinese weapons, making this plane is essentially useless for China.

Russian salesmen will tell you how wonderful the Su-35 is, but the lack of foreign customers for this aircraft speaks volume.
 
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