Chinese purchase of Su-35

Subedei · Nov 13, 2012

jackliu said:
Trust me, China is NOT holding it is breath on hoping the Russian selling them Su-35. The day when Chinese are depending on Russian military complex are LONG GONE.

And LOL about the scamming, it is Russian the ones wanting to sell, it is NOT the Chinese that wants to buy. This is a buyer's market my friend.

we can't fault the russians for promoting their penultimate combat aircraft. and, who could blame the chinese if they take a long, maybe second, look at a very capable platform. all the spin aside, i think we can trust the chinese decision makers to act in their best interests. could it really hurt china to agree to a mutual production run? russia desperately needs funding to bring their own air force up to date and, as the plaaf is invested heavily in flanker variants, one more really couldn't hurt.

and, btw, jackliu: relax a lil' bit man. the russians are generally very nationalistic and very sophomoric in their propaganda, but, not every political slight is based in racism. sometimes, it's just plain nationalism. actually, i find the russians' attempts hilarious. they seem not to recognize what such infantile slights actually reveal about their own collective mental state. memo to russians: it's not confidence, it's insecurity. kind'a like the constant iranian bluster about their latest wonder weapons.

all in all, easy to ignore.

Subedei · Nov 13, 2012

samawat said:
I think they have sent su 35 to Indonesia or something.Russians will not hold their breath upon chinese decision weather to buy su 35 or not. They have plenty of work for domestic air force. One is for sure, russia will not be scammed by selling china small batch of these fighters, so the chinese end up copying it or at least some technical or technological solutions. Days when chinese orders were crucial to russian military complex are long gone.

you better check your sources!

russia is desperate for external sourcing for damn near all their expenditures, both military and domestic. russia's economy in a one horse show right now; energy export. informed russians know that, and they're not happy with it.

when nationalism results in creating a myth to protect oneself from the truth, my friend, it often leads to disappointment.

just ask mitt romney!

jackliu · Nov 13, 2012

kyanges said:
The marketing terms for 5th gen were everything that both of you said and a few more.

- Stealth
- High maneuverability
- Advanced avionics
- Networked data fusion from sensors and avionics
- Multi-role

But again, it's half real, and half marketing talk you know? The stuff they say just to sell new planes.

Again, you can argue that everything 4th gen have will have on 5th gen, but what make 5th gen the most different?

STEALTH

jackliu · Nov 13, 2012

Subedei said:
we can't fault the russians for promoting their penultimate combat aircraft. and, who could blame the chinese if they take a long, maybe second, look at a very capable platform. all the spin aside, i think we can trust the chinese decision makers to act in their best interests. could it really hurt china to agree to a mutual production run? russia desperately needs funding to bring their own air force up to date and, as the plaaf is invested heavily in flanker variants, one more really couldn't hurt.

and, btw, jackliu: relax a lil' bit man. the russians are generally very nationalistic and very sophomoric in their propaganda, but, not every political slight is based in racism. sometimes, it's just plain nationalism. actually, i find the russians' attempts hilarious. they seem not to recognize what such infantile slights actually reveal about their own collective mental state. memo to russians: it's not confidence, it's insecurity. kind'a like the constant iranian bluster about their latest wonder weapons.

all in all, easy to ignore.

Come on man, let me have my fun, now that NikeX is gone, how else am I going to have my fun??

But on a serious note, I don't see China buying Su-35 when what they have is just as good, and buying Su-35 will only increase the problem of logistic, you need to keep buying spare parts and worst of all, only Russian made weapon works on Su-35. The only thing China can benefit from Su-35 is to take the engines and break it apart and study it. Russia will never allow it, and on the other hand there is really not that much to learn from it, WS-10A is already installed on all new batches of J-11B that is now flying. WS-10G is also fitted on the current J-20 as well. And we have already see WS-10A fitted on J-10B prototypes few years ago.

I just don't see how they will have problem making WS-15, or feel the need to purchase Su-35 to make their whole logistic a mess.

And lastly, have you ever heard anything from the Chinese side about this rumor at all? Everything we heard are from Russian sources, and everything Russian said the Chinese have denied.

MiG-29 · Nov 13, 2012

samawat said:
Their engines will be ready, by what time frame, 2020 ? Some russian industrial authority claims PAK FA final stage engine will be assembled in 2014. Given the chinese lagging in this field, 2020 is not unrealistic when it comes to the next generation chinese jet engines, production readiness.

The article claims the second stage 117 will be superior to any current fifth generation engine, the 117S is much more simple and less advanced, the 117 currently flown on PAKFA is stage I, stage II will be tested in 2014.

The new stage will be far cheaper, lighter and more powerful.

117S in fact by 2014 will be old in technology, since already 117 is more powerful and 117 stage II(129) will be much more advanced

Blackstone · Nov 13, 2012

jackliu said:
What the hell are you talking about? First of all without any evidence you overestimate time line of Chinese engine development, then at the same time, you underestimate the timeline of Russian development to make it seems the difference between the two is huge.

There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever WS-15 will only be ready in 2020. And yes, there is evidence that Pak Fa will be delayed until 2019

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If you want to say something use a source, we don't appreciate talking out of thin air here, plenty of other forum for that.

And lastly, what does engine with 5th gen fighter have anything to do with China buying SU-35? And the key to 5th gen fighter is primarily focus on stealth and detection, not dog fighting, it can do in theory without a super high thrust engine.

Give it a rest, dude. It's well known to readers here that China had lots of problems getting their jet engines to the same level as their other noteworthy aviation accomplishments. We all respect what China aviation industry has achieved, and we believe the sky is the limit for them, but let's call a spade a spade and admit Chinese engine development is lagging.

MiG-29 · Nov 13, 2012

jackliu said:
What the hell are you talking about? First of all without any evidence you overestimate time line of Chinese engine development, then at the same time, you underestimate the timeline of Russian development to make it seems the difference between the two is huge.

There is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever WS-15 will only be ready in 2020. And yes, there is evidence that Pak Fa will be delayed until 2019

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If you want to say something use a source, we don't appreciate talking out of thin air here, plenty of other forum for that.

And lastly, what does engine with 5th gen fighter have anything to do with China buying SU-35? And the key to 5th gen fighter is primarily focus on stealth and detection, not dog fighting, it can do in theory without a super high thrust engine.

Russia has two main engine projects for 2020

one is DP-30, this engine is a 29000 kg of thrust engine for An-124 and 117 stage II for PAKFA.
The Samara Kuznetsov JSC, a subsidiary of the United Engine Corporation (UEC), known for its powerful engines mounted by long-range bombers, is running pilot work on an advanced turbofan with a thrust of 30 tf for airliners and freighters, designated as PD-30. In the future, such an engine could power future passenger and cargo planes, being developed under the Aircraft 2020 programme, and the upgraded Antonov An-124-300 Ruslan heavylifter as well.

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Currently PD-14 and 117 are for MS-21 and PAKFA prototypes

30 May 2012 saw the completion of the assembly of the first PD-14 demonstrator prototype in Perm, and the engine entered its bench tests in June. A full-scale PD-14 mockup will be unveiled by UEC at this airshow in Farnborough

The baseline model of the PD-14 with the 14,000-kgf takeoff thrust is designed for powering the MC-21-300 airliner. The shorter version, the MC-21-200, is supposed to be equipped with 12,500-kgf PD-14A engines, and the PD-14M enhanced-thrust (15,600 kgf) variant is designed to fit the MC-21-400 stretch.

According to calculations, the PD-14 is on a par with its foreign rivals PW1400G and LEAP-X in terms of fuel efficiency, while having a slightly lower bypass

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The operability of parts and components was confirmed (including those manufactured using ‘critical technologies' (the ‘hollow' titan fan rotor blade, turbine blades made of single-crystal superalloys and intermetallides, compressor blisks, etc.). The engine’s performance complies with the simulation model

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kyanges · Nov 13, 2012

MiG-29 said:
Russia has two main engine projects for 2020

one is DP-30, this engine is a 29000 kg of thrust engine for An-124 and 117 stage II for PAKFA.
The Samara Kuznetsov JSC, a subsidiary of the United Engine Corporation (UEC), known for its powerful engines mounted by long-range bombers, is running pilot work on an advanced turbofan with a thrust of 30 tf for airliners and freighters, designated as PD-30. In the future, such an engine could power future passenger and cargo planes, being developed under the Aircraft 2020 programme, and the upgraded Antonov An-124-300 Ruslan heavylifter as well.

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Currently PD-14 and 117 are for MS-21 and PAKFA prototypes

30 May 2012 saw the completion of the assembly of the first PD-14 demonstrator prototype in Perm, and the engine entered its bench tests in June. A full-scale PD-14 mockup will be unveiled by UEC at this airshow in Farnborough

The baseline model of the PD-14 with the 14,000-kgf takeoff thrust is designed for powering the MC-21-300 airliner. The shorter version, the MC-21-200, is supposed to be equipped with 12,500-kgf PD-14A engines, and the PD-14M enhanced-thrust (15,600 kgf) variant is designed to fit the MC-21-400 stretch.

According to calculations, the PD-14 is on a par with its foreign rivals PW1400G and LEAP-X in terms of fuel efficiency, while having a slightly lower bypass
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The operability of parts and components was confirmed (including those manufactured using ‘critical technologies' (the ‘hollow' titan fan rotor blade, turbine blades made of single-crystal superalloys and intermetallides, compressor blisks, etc.). The engine’s performance complies with the simulation model
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What?

MiG-29 · Nov 13, 2012

kyanges said:
What?

Russia has two main projects for 2020 one is 117 stage II

see

Bench testing of a radically new engine (the second stage) for the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft PAK FA will start in 2014, said the general designer-director of the Scientific and Technical Center "Saturn", Eugeny Marchuk The engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing then said Marchuk at the 11th International Conference" Aviation and Space - 2012 ", which opened at the Moscow Aviation Institute.

According to him, the new "engine 117" will belong to the "5 +" generation and its characteristics will be superior to the existing foreign counterparts engine for fifth generation aircraft.

"This is - a fundamentally new engine, The motor unit weight is 30% less (than the 117C - approx.), Life-cycle costs will by 30% less, and it should be cheaper, "- said Marchuk

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and the other is PD-30

however the only engines now flying are PD-14 for MS-21 and 117 stage I for PAKFA prototypes

jackliu · Nov 13, 2012

Blackstone said:
Give it a rest, dude. It's well known to readers here that China had lots of problems getting their jet engines to the same level as their other noteworthy aviation accomplishments. We all respect what China aviation industry has achieved, and we believe the sky is the limit for them, but let's call a spade a spade and admit Chinese engine development is lagging.

And please tell me because of this China will purchase Su-35 because.....???

This is the whole point of discussion, please help me connect the dots.

Chinese purchase of Su-35

Subedei

Banned Idiot

Subedei

Banned Idiot

jackliu

Banned Idiot

jackliu

Banned Idiot

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

Blackstone

Brigadier

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

kyanges

Junior Member

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

jackliu

Banned Idiot