Chinese Internal Politics

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Good examples of this are the way the Liaoning was purchased from Ukraine. Or the Dalian shipyard which built Type 002 and several Type 055 yet got its CEO arrested. Just because someone is corrupt does not mean they aren't competent.

If China is serious about fighting corruption they need to properly filter people before they are appointed to such high offices. Doing it right afterward they got appointed are were in service is what was disgracing I think.
I understand the arguement. Nevertheless I favor removing those who are corrupt and competent. The competency can be built and nurtured, a good meritocracy should not lack competent candidates. Corruption is constant, it will worsen over time, never get better. Corruption also creates a norm that encourage others to also be corrupt. Therefore removing corruption is higher priority than maintain competencr. High competence enhance area of one domain. Corruption drag down entire systems.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
But who said "western style transperency" is the right procedure for anything? Why should anyone care how China's legal process is carried out differently from the west? The purpose of an effective system is to find and remove the bug, so long as that purpose is served it is good system.

China remove someone and make anouncement when investigation is over. The west spread out all sorts of information regarding a person who may or may not be of wrong doing. To me that is wrong in that it allows "mob justice", granting unduly external influnce to pressure on judical system. Western style transperency is a double-edged sword, on the one hand it prevent abuse of power, on the other hand it allows interference from verious interest groups including the enemy. It is the same thing as "democracy" where corrupted and incompetent leaders can be removed but also a foreign agent can be installed, such as Von De Lyen and Zelensky etc.

The west win NOT because China is not as transparent as they are, the west win because people actually pay attention in west advocacy of their "transparency", that is when people here begin to rely the information from the west.
What transparency do the western systems have that China doesn't?

The only difference is that they almost never fire anyone. Instead, they let them fail upwards or fall into sinecure positions, depending on if they win or lose power struggles.

You could argue that such a model creates a sense of increased unity, but it doesn't really provide a sense of transparency.
Taiwan's next "president" candidates are all pro-independence basically. Great for armed reunification fans.
Tbh historically ROC isn't interested in restarting the civil war. They have poor fighter motivation, and a lot of Taiwanese depend on the mainland. If China wants the status quo, the status quo will be kept. On the other hand if China is eyeing a crackdown on separatist activity like in Xinjiang, then things become unpredictable.
PR doesn't matter. What matters is how they were allowed to climb so high before being removed. Thats the issue that needs to be resolved
Same way Blinken or Borrell made their way so far up I guess. In all systems, some people kinda fail upwards and/or start out skilled but become uncompetitive at higher levels.
 

KYli

Brigadier
PR doesn't matter. What matters is how they were allowed to climb so high before being removed. Thats the issue that needs to be resolved
If rumor about Qin Gang is true, then I would say it is very difficult to find out he had a relationship with a reporter that used surrogate to have a child for him. I would argue that many powerful men don't have a clean slate when it came to women. It is only very problematic when that woman is US citizen and his child has US citizenship that is treason as such relationship and background makes him vulnerable to blackmail.

For Li Shangfu, many powerful figures that have held the title of top procurement official in PLA have been indicted for corruption. If rumor is true that he got implicated due to investigation of current procurement officials then it is not surprised. Personally, I think anyone who works at procurement shouldn't be held top title as the position is just too easily corrupted.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
The "PR war" is meaningless and shouldn't be a source of frustration. There's plenty to be actually concerned about like China's technological advancement and military buildup. To even acknowledge what Western propaganda bleats isn't worthwhile.
Personally, I’d prefer it that the Chinese government paid no attention to, and chose to not respond to, western propaganda. To me, it smacks of insecurity.
There is no need to even regard what amounts to gossip!
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
It seems that some of you are misunderstanding my frustration.
Not it matters much, but I did not misunderstand what was your frustration.

It's not about Li and Qin getting investigated and disciplined. We all agree on the bright side of it which means that the anti-corruption system is working.
I know and agree.

It's about whether there is a way for China to not let the enemy to score easy points in PR war while keeping the systems working.
If you care too much you loose. If you care to fight in their game you loose. Spreading influence is always good. But this particular strand of PR war AKA soft "power" that has been adpoted by the west since the "color revolution and spring" has beome "racing to the bottom". It is counter productive even to the west, not only internationally but domestically. We shouldn't be pulled by the nose by the loser.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
PR doesn't matter. What matters is how they were allowed to climb so high before being removed. Thats the issue that needs to be resolved
Well, as is most often the case, the impulse to either corruption or abuse of power, typically manifests after rising to power.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
The "PR war" is meaningless and shouldn't be a source of frustration.
PR doesn't matter.
CPC disagrees though. It still keeps its PR department which oversees the big army of state-run media. At its every top level, PR is always a main focus of a particular Politburo member. The party does not spend the money for nothing.

Even with the approval rate as high as 90% or 95%, there are still tens of millions or even more minds and hearts for CPC to win. Not all of these unhappy Chinese are fooled by the western media, but it is still a large number in absolute quantity, likely in the millions.

Not to mention that there are much more beyond the borders.

There's plenty to be actually concerned about like China's technological advancement and military buildup.
What matters is how they were allowed to climb so high before being removed. Thats the issue that needs to be resolved
Agree but none of these are in conflicting with not to lose fights easily in PR war. China can and should do better in all fronts.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
It seems that some of you are misunderstanding my frustration. It's not about Li and Qin getting investigated and disciplined. We all agree on the bright side of it which means that the anti-corruption system is working.

It's about whether there is a way for China to not let the enemy to score easy points in PR war while keeping the systems working.

No we cannot pretend that the western media do not exist unless we don't care about the PR war. We can disdain the western media strategically but we have to take them seriously in tactics.

You act as if there are no easy PR points if they weren’t indicted.

Qin and Li not indicted: look, the whole anti-corruption thing is a scam. Xi would never purge his lackeys.

Qin and Li indicted: their corruption is so great that not even Xi can turn a blind eye to it. Just imagine how corrupt the rest of the SeeSeePee is.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
If you care too much you loose. If you care to fight in their game you loose. Spreading influence is always good. But this particular strand of PR war AKA soft "power" that has been adpoted by the west since the "color revolution and spring" has beome "racing to the bottom". It is counter productive even to the west, not only internationally but domestically. We shouldn't be pulled by the nose by the loser.
I don't think we are on the same page. Probably I wasn't clear. But I did not say how the Chinese authority should be transparent. Neither did I say how China should fight the PR war. Therefore I was not implying to follow the western style of transparency or PR tactics.

I understand the needs for the authority to keep certain processes in secret, for whatever reasons. But if China is to take PR seriously, it could have handled the incidents a bit more tactfully.

We need all agree on that complete lack of transparency is no good to anyone. It only leaves the public to rumors, lies and FUDs (fear, uncertainty and doubt).

At the beginning when Qin and Li were detained, it would have disabled the western media from scoring the easy points if the authority have proactively made a simple public statement of fact saying that these gentlemen are going to be off duty temporarily due to undisclosable reasons, i.e. “因故暂时无法履行职责” in Chinese.

For figures like Qin and Li who were constantly in spotlights, any disappearance of them from the public sights without explanation would immediately catch notice and start brewing rumors.

In the age of Internet, I don't think announcements like this would hurt reputation of any public servant if he later comes out clear and clean. It's a norm for officials to carry out undisclosable tasks, including cooperation in anti-corruption investigation.
 
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