Chinese Geopolitics

Blackstone · Jul 19, 2014

SamuraiBlue said:
Sorry but my personal opinion is not to trust any figures coming out of PRC especially surveys. I've seen enough vids showing ordinary PRC citizens shunning away from the camera not wanting to talk in fear of something. I am also familiar to the fact that any kind of survey similar to what you describe would not be authorized to be initiated by the government by an independent entity.

I can't argue with you on Chinese statistics and propaganda, because I don't trust them either. But, I make a point of speaking to taxi drivers, and mom and pop shop keepers, and every single one I spoke with complained about official corruption of one sort or another. Nevertheless, all of them also say life has improved for most of them, and they expect their children's lives to be even better.

I first visited Mainland China in 2004, and I was just there last week. The difference is night and day, not only improvements in modernity, but there is now individual freedom in China. I kid you not, and no less a scholar than David Shambaugh, who's a "balanced" China fan and critic, say the same.

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Blackstone · Jul 19, 2014

TerraN_EmpirE said:
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The Communist party in China could never allow a alternative party. As No Communist party can abide such under there rule. You may have less forceful leadership but that's it.

Yes your right, but what's not appreciated enough is the fact within the CPC, there's a great deal of democracy. Communist scholars are busy trying to figure out a way to retain single party rule, while giving people the important things they want. CPC officials spent a lot of time studying how the Soviet Union collapsed, so you could bet your bottom dollar they'll do anything they must to avoid that fate. However, teams of scholars have studied Singapore's "democracy," and have discussed ways to have a quasi-Western system that gives the trappings of democratic rule, but with only one party in power.

Franklin · Jul 19, 2014

If anyone here believes that the economic data coming out of the US, Japan and Europe are anymore credible than those of China you will have a shock coming. You either believe in the concept of government GDP data or you don't. If you do then you have to take the numbers for what they are. If you don't then you have to find other ways to try to find out what is happening in a economy.

Blackstone · Jul 19, 2014

Franklin said:
If anyone here believes that the economic data coming out of the US, Japan and Europe are anymore credible than those of China you will have a shock coming. You either believe in the concept of government GDP data or you don't. If you do then you have to take the numbers for what they are. If you don't then you have to find other ways to try to find out what is happening in a economy.

Well Franklin, caveat emptor is the smart thing to do, but most reasonable people would say they trust economic data from US, Europe, and Japan (within reason). With any complex data, intentional and unintentional errors happen, but on balance, data from those three sources are as good as they get.

SamuraiBlue · Jul 19, 2014

Blackstone said:
China's dynasties and emperors don't come close to Japan's unbroken line of emperors, going back about 2,600 years, but no kingdom, nation, or empire does. It's a unique contribution to human history, and the world should pay homage for that unparalleled achievement. However, there were plenty of warfare and struggles by various warlords and shogunate until the Meiji period. As for China, compared with Western nations, her dynasties are as good or better in longevity.

Believe it or not the Japanese emperor had reigned but not ruled Japan from the 9th century AD up. After that a warlord had been controlling the state given the title of Seitai-shogun from the imperial palace up until the Meji restoration after that Japan adopted a western government system and a constitution. Even during the Meji era up on the Emperor had not participated in ruling Japan. He is like a mantle piece, a symbol now written within the present constitution.

Blackstone said:
You're right and not right. There's no question China needs to develop (not adapt) institutions that works with the culture. Even the Chinese themselves believe that, and Xi Jinping's reforms are meant to address some of the shortfalls. We'll see Chinese use systems from all over the world, including Japan, but with Chinese innovations.

I do not believe you can develop a new political system from scratch and you'll need to adopt it from somewhere. You really do not require bragging rights to run a nation.

Blackstone said:
You don't like China, I get it, nevertheless you should show some respect for the historical feats the Communist Party of China has achieved, since Ding Xiaoping reopened her to the world. China went from a bankrupt, feudal society with all hazards of the calendar into the world's second largest economy, and along the way her per capita GDP increased from about $150 in 1979 to about $6,000 in 2013. According to the IMF, China, by her little lonesome, accounted for about 40% of global economic growth since the Great Recession of 2008, and pulled about 500 million people out of poverty. It's true Japan and the West are still far ahead of China, and $6,000 a year isn't much money, but try and remember Communist China's economy today is about four times the size of "democratic" India, and the two countries were roughly equal in '79.

The biggest problem I have with the present PRC and her attitude is not being able to recognize Japan's vast contribution raising PRC to it's present state. It's the same stinking attitude as the ROK.
At the time no European nation or the US was willing to provide financial assistance as much as Japan had provided and the technological transfer became the basis of the present manufacturing industry for both nations.
Now PRC teaches only of history of past aggression and completely omitting this fact.

Who said "A person that drinks water never forgets a favor of the person who dug the well."?

Franklin · Jul 19, 2014

Blackstone said:
Well Franklin, caveat emptor is the smart thing to do, but most reasonable people would say they trust economic data from US, Europe, and Japan (within reason). With any complex data, intentional and unintentional errors happen, but on balance, data from those three sources are as good as they get.

Are you kidding me ? In the US the unemployment numbers doesn't include the people who have "given up" or the people who are doing part time or temp jobs. The inflation numbers doesn't include the cost of food and fuel. The GDP numbers are spiked by reinterpreting what constitute GDP. Last year the US tinkelt with the way the GDP is calculated and created 500 billion dollars of GDP out of thin air. The figures from Europe and Japan are calculated the same way. Its not that there are no problems with the numbers coming out of those countries but its just that they don't ask the same questions as they do with the Chinese numbers.

For example I have done the "Li Keqiang test" on the US economy ie looking at electricity output vs GDP and population growth. Between 2005 - 2012 the nominal GDP of the US grew about 20% and the population grew over 5%. But electricity output over that same period only grew about 2%. The electricity output in the US grew slower than the population never mind the nominal GDP over that 7 year period. And the media since 2010 has been telling the people that there is a "resurgency of manufacturing" in the US.

Don't take my word for it go look up the data and do your own calculations.

jobjed · Jul 19, 2014

SamuraiBlue said:
The biggest problem I have with the present PRC and her attitude is not being able to recognize Japan's vast contribution raising PRC to it's present state. It's the same stinking attitude as the ROK.
At the time no European nation or the US was willing to provide financial assistance as much as Japan had provided and the technological transfer became the basis of the present manufacturing industry for both nations.
Now PRC teaches only of history of past aggression and completely omitting this fact.

Who said "A person that drinks water never forgets a favor of the person who dug the well."?

"A person who drinks water never forgets a favour of the person who dug the well... unless the well-digger was paid a fortune and was contracted to dig the well as is his profession."

Don't pretend Japan conducted business with China and Korea with a charitable heart. Business is conducted bilaterally for mutual benefit. By your logic, Japan owes China for providing Japanese investors with profitable returns that has benefited the Japanese economy. It's pejorative to suggest Japan is anything more than a business partner with whom China has conducted financial dealings that has been in the interests of both countries.

The PRC teaches of past and current unequal treatment of the Chinese people by foreigners and drills into the minds of the next generation that such occurrences must not be allowed to be repeated and past occurrences must be answered for. The keyword here is 'UNEQUAL'. There is nothing unequal with Japan investing in China; China gains capital and Japan gains profits; Japan does not deserve special mention for conventional deeds. What Japan does deserve scrutiny for are war crimes; you know as well as I that it is a futile endeavour to elicit remorse from people like you, there's no point in further dialogue on this matter; it will be settled in another way.

SamuraiBlue · Jul 19, 2014

jobjed said:
"A person who drinks water never forgets a favour of the person who dug the well... unless the well-digger was paid a fortune and was contracted to dig the well as is his profession."

Don't pretend Japan conducted business with China and Korea with a charitable heart. Business is conducted bilaterally for mutual benefit. By your logic, Japan owes China for providing Japanese investors with profitable returns that has benefited the Japanese economy. It's pejorative to suggest Japan is anything more than a business partner with whom China has conducted financial dealings that has been in the interests of both countries.

The PRC teaches of past and current unequal treatment of the Chinese people by foreigners and drills into the minds of the next generation that such occurrences must not be allowed to be repeated and past occurrences must be answered for. The keyword here is 'UNEQUAL'. There is nothing unequal with Japan investing in China; China gains capital and Japan gains profits; Japan does not deserve special mention for conventional deeds. What Japan does deserve scrutiny for are war crimes; you know as well as I that it is a futile endeavour to elicit remorse from people like you, there's no point in further dialogue on this matter; it will be settled in another way.

Yeah I know of a saying in Japanese as well as in Chinese that explain exactly your attitude;

好了疮疤忘了疼

In English

Danger past and God forgotten.

jobjed · Jul 19, 2014

SamuraiBlue said:
Yeah I know of a saying in Japanese as well as in Chinese that explain exactly your attitude;

好了疮疤忘了疼

In English

Danger past and God forgotten.

Here's one in a mutual tongue that describes you: "holier than thou". Somehow, you think China owes you something for... conducting business? Japan reaps profits on one hand and demands reverence on the other, what an aversive attitude.

advill · Jul 19, 2014

FYI Singapore has an opposition party that has won seats in Parliament, 8 during the last General Elections held 2 years ago. In recent times, the 2 by-elections were won by the opposition Workers Party. So if China wants to study the Singapore system, they have to seriously consider other parties besides its CPC involvement in Chinese politics. Maybe China should eventually allow the KMT to be accepted as a legitimate party, after all Taiwan is considered China's Province. Perhaps this is wishful thinking at the present time - maybe in future when the younger Chinese generation yearns for peoples' power.

Blackstone said:
Yes your right, but what's not appreciated enough is the fact within the CPC, there's a great deal of democracy. Communist scholars are busy trying to figure out a way to retain single party rule, while giving people the important things they want. CPC officials spent a lot of time studying how the Soviet Union collapsed, so you could bet your bottom dollar they'll do anything they must to avoid that fate. However, teams of scholars have studied Singapore's "democracy," and have discussed ways to have a quasi-Western system that gives the trappings of democratic rule, but with only one party in power.

Chinese Geopolitics

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