Chinese Geopolitics

SamuraiBlue said:

The biggest problem I have with the present PRC and her attitude is not being able to recognize Japan's vast contribution raising PRC to it's present state. It's the same stinking attitude as the ROK.
At the time no European nation or the US was willing to provide financial assistance as much as Japan had provided and the technological transfer became the basis of the present manufacturing industry for both nations.
Now PRC teaches only of history of past aggression and completely omitting this fact.

Who said "A person that drinks water never forgets a favor of the person who dug the well."?

Click to expand...

This is the biggest lie that is propagated by the Japanese right winger It is nothing further from the truth If you look at the total amount so called aid from 80's to present days. It is nothing but minuscule percentage of Chinese GDP . This is from official ODA website. The total Japanese aid is 3 trillion dollar which is roughly 3 billion US dollar . Chinese GDP is 10 trillion dollar Even using average GDP of less than 1 trillion dollar. The socalled aid is less then 1% No where close to "WE help you guys so be thankful for it"

If you look at the composition of socalled aid it is even more revealing . You need to understand there are different category of aid. There are grant that is free money and LOAN that has to be paid back every single cent of it albeit with lower interest. And China paid back every single cent of the loan. There are technical aid.You see the component of technical aid is very small

Now if you look at Japan aid to China the grant part is minuscule compare to the loan part. And the loan come with so many restriction that it is nothing to sing about. It required that China has to buy everything(good, service) from Japan with this loan . IN other word it is nothing but disguise "export promotion" to the Japanese company . Japan also latecomer in investing in China. They invest in China not out of their good heart but out of economic necessity.They even join the western boycott of China after TAM. See you have to see the chronology of Japanese investment in China .

The biggest single investor in China is not Japan by wide margin but Overseas Chinese they are the pioneer in investing in China and up to late 90 still the single biggest investor in China. They are the one that kickstart and funded the Chinese reform. Soon the Japanese loose their low tech export like textile and toy to this new competition from newer Overseas Chinese factory in China. They and the Korean has no choice but to invest in China to take advantage of lower cost and highly productive work force in China.

So please get off your high horses and read the real story behind the China economic rise. People should not take credit where credit is not due. The loan is small price to pay for China renouncement of "War reparation pay back" which I believe China should never sign. Imagine the cost of destruction in man and material inflicted by IJA in China over 30 years. Japan was nowhere seen in China time of need after the disaster GLF instead she join the western power in their economic boycott ad sanction against China


Overview of Official Development Assistance (ODA) to China

June 2005

Japanese

Official Development Assistance (ODA) to China began in 1979 and from that time to the present, approximately 3.1331 trillion yen in loan aid (yen loans), 145.7 billion yen in grant aid, and 144.6 billion yen in technical cooperation have been implemented.

Grant Aid

Grant aid is financial assistance that is extended to recipient countries without imposing an obligation of repayment.

Loan Aid

Loan aid involves the provision of loans under relaxed conditions (low interest, long repayment period) to recipient countries. (These are in principle untied loans.)

Technical Cooperation

Technical cooperation involves the technologies being provided to recipient countries to spread the use of technology among people in developing countries and improve technical levels.

Past ODA projects in China included large-scale economic infrastructure projects, including the building of roads, airports and power stations, as well as infrastructure projects in medical and environmental areas. These projects have played a significant role in the realization of China's current economic growth.

For example, through Japanese loan aid (yen loans), a total length of 5,200 km of railway lines were electrified, and in the area of seaports, approximately 60 large-size berths capable of taking ships in excess of 10,000 tons were built. In addition, the China-Japan Friendship Hospital that was established through grant aid is one of the major medical institutions in the Beijing metropolitan area, treating approximately 3,000 patients each day.

Assistance includes more than infrastructure projects. In the area of technical cooperation the Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) has accepted trainees from China for the purpose of providing assistance to cultivate administrative personnel. As of FY2003 JICA had accepted a cumulative total of over 15,000 trainees, and the Association for Overseas Technical Scholarship (AOTS) had accepted more than 22,000 trainees to nurture the human resources required for industrial promotion. JICA has also dispatched 5,000 experts to China.

Hendrik_2000 said:

This is the biggest lie that is propagated by the Japanese right winger It is nothing further from the truth If you look at the total amount so called aid from 80's to present days. It is nothing but minuscule percentage of Chinese GDP . This is from official ODA website. The total Japanese aid is 3 trillion dollar which is roughly 3 billion US dollar . Chinese GDP is 10 trillion dollar Even using average GDP of less than 1 trillion dollar. The socalled aid is less then 1% No where close to "WE help you guys so be thankful for it"

[/I]

Click to expand...

Auh, what was the Chinese GDP during the 70's and 80's when receiving the bulk of ODA?
Also don't forget inflation adjustment while you are at it.

I read this aid topic above is kinda like some right wing US attitude towards China, the "international order" created for China to prosper or something like that. I think China can hit back this attitude by saying, they loan money for US to prosper as well. How US afford those fancy military stuff if not China loan them the money? China can hit back Japan saying, if they didn't teach them farming or give them written languages probably Japan still in the stone age now. These are right wingers attitude, you got them all over the globe like the world owe them something. Get on agenda, the world keep on turning and waits for no one. There's no selfless act here...

Here's a good chance for furthering collaboration, mutual understanding and built military to military contact relations. Positive thing such this ensure peace in long run..


...
TROOPS from China’s People’s Liberation Army will for the first time stage joint military exercises with the Australian Army and US forces — and they will take place on Australian soil in October.
...

Franklin said:

Are you kidding me ? In the US the unemployment numbers doesn't include the people who have "given up" or the people who are doing part time or temp jobs. The inflation numbers doesn't include the cost of food and fuel. The GDP numbers are spiked by reinterpreting what constitute GDP. Last year the US tinkelt with the way the GDP is calculated and created 500 billion dollars of GDP out of thin air. The figures from Europe and Japan are calculated the same way. Its not that there are no problems with the numbers coming out of those countries but its just that they don't ask the same questions as they do with the Chinese numbers.

For example I have done the "Li Keqiang test" on the US economy ie looking at electricity output vs GDP and population growth. Between 2005 - 2012 the nominal GDP of the US grew about 20% and the population grew over 5%. But electricity output over that same period only grew about 2%. The electricity output in the US grew slower than the population never mind the nominal GDP over that 7 year period. And the media since 2010 has been telling the people that there is a "resurgency of manufacturing" in the US.

Don't take my word for it go look up the data and do your own calculations.

Click to expand...

Ya, we cannot simply trust what the numbers given by US regarding their growth. Probably bullshit numbers. Look at the financial crisis 2008 started in US. They gave all AAA ratings to their banks, all these probably bullshit ratings and next day those AAA banks collapse.
Looking at US cargos and electricity consumption is good indicator whether US is growing or not. If they didn't ship as many, consumption remain sames, immigrants jumping over their borders...then it is not growing. Probably a lot welfare going on, giving money to the jobless, charging hundreds just for couple table of aspirin....they are not enlarging the economic cake...but eating the same cake, sharing the small pieces to the many growing population + illegal immigrants. Need to verify the fact, do not simply trust the numbers given by these institutions.

Hendrik_2000 said:

This is the biggest lie that is propagated by the Japanese right winger It is nothing further from the truth If you look at the total amount so called aid from 80's to present days. It is nothing but minuscule percentage of Chinese GDP . This is from official ODA website. The total Japanese aid is 3 trillion dollar which is roughly 3 billion US dollar . Chinese GDP is 10 trillion dollar Even using average GDP of less than 1 trillion dollar. The socalled aid is less then 1% No where close to "WE help you guys so be thankful for it"

Click to expand...

The Japanese also forget that the Chinese forgave them war reparations in the name of friendship and the hope that they would be able to move past their war-time history.

The bulk of the Japanese "aid" is in the form of loans. Loans which have and will be paid back with interest.

It seems to me that the Japanese believe fairy tales when it comes to China.

SamuraiBlue said:

Believe it or not the Japanese emperor had reigned but not ruled Japan from the 9th century AD up. After that a warlord had been controlling the state given the title of Seitai-shogun from the imperial palace up until the Meji restoration after that Japan adopted a western government system and a constitution. Even during the Meji era up on the Emperor had not participated in ruling Japan. He is like a mantle piece, a symbol now written within the present constitution.

Click to expand...

Japan has a very rich history, and it's unfortunate China and Taiwan Province education systems concentrated more on conflicts between the two countries and appreciating the long and deep relationship between them. Both sides could do more to educate their youth about the other side, but it's got to be based on unvarnished truth, even if they're hard to contemplate.

I do not believe you can develop a new political system from scratch and you'll need to adopt it from somewhere. You really do not require bragging rights to run a nation.

Click to expand...

History give ample evidence of peoples everywhere developing their own political systems, while isolated from each other. The Greeks developed nascent democracies from scratch, and Rome nurtured that into a flawed but recognizable Republic. England developed a Parliamentary system on its won, and the US innovated that system from House of Burgesses through the Articles of Confederation, to the Constitution of the United States. Finally, the Iroquio Nation in America developed their own system that included representatives (called Sachems) and a bicameral form of government long before the arrival of European colonists. I'm certain there are scores of other examples throughout human history.

The biggest problem I have with the present PRC and her attitude is not being able to recognize Japan's vast contribution raising PRC to it's present state. It's the same stinking attitude as the ROK.
At the time no European nation or the US was willing to provide financial assistance as much as Japan had provided and the technological transfer became the basis of the present manufacturing industry for both nations.
Now PRC teaches only of history of past aggression and completely omitting this fact.

Who said "A person that drinks water never forgets a favor of the person who dug the well."?

Click to expand...

I agree PRC government and the Chinese people need to give Japan more credit for helping Mainland China come out of isolation to become the second largest economy in the world. But let's not forget Japan's assistance wasn't charity, and Japan got lots of cheap labor, oil, other natural resources, and agreement by Ding Xiaoping to table their Diaoyu differences. Japan was also among the first in line for access to Chinese markets, and made lots of money because of it. In short, Japan enjoyed about 40 years of peace and prosperity with China as a friendly partner.

I also agree Chinese and Japanese peoples need to move on from the 3rd Sino-Japanese war of 1895-2014(?), and part of that requires Japan to come clean about its wartime activities and stop making excuses about their crimes against humanity. Without it, the two peoples can't move on, because there can't be forgiveness without real contrition.

port_08 said:

Ya, we cannot simply trust what the numbers given by US regarding their growth. Probably bullshit numbers. Look at the financial crisis 2008 started in US. They gave all AAA ratings to their banks, all these probably bullshit ratings and next day those AAA banks collapse.
Looking at US cargos and electricity consumption is good indicator whether US is growing or not. If they didn't ship as many, consumption remain sames, immigrants jumping over their borders...then it is not growing. Probably a lot welfare going on, giving money to the jobless, charging hundreds just for couple table of aspirin....they are not enlarging the economic cake...but eating the same cake, sharing the small pieces to the many growing population + illegal immigrants. Need to verify the fact, do not simply trust the numbers given by these institutions.

Click to expand...

All nations manipulate economic figures. Western nations are just as guilty as China. Although, US and China haven't gone as far as some EU nations like Italy and Spain. They are adding prostitution and illegal drug sales to their GDP figures.

Here is an example of the US Fed manipulating economical data at the expense of average Americans.

Franklin said:

Are you kidding me ? In the US the unemployment numbers doesn't include the people who have "given up" or the people who are doing part time or temp jobs. The inflation numbers doesn't include the cost of food and fuel. The GDP numbers are spiked by reinterpreting what constitute GDP. Last year the US tinkelt with the way the GDP is calculated and created 500 billion dollars of GDP out of thin air. The figures from Europe and Japan are calculated the same way. Its not that there are no problems with the numbers coming out of those countries but its just that they don't ask the same questions as they do with the Chinese numbers.

For example I have done the "Li Keqiang test" on the US economy ie looking at electricity output vs GDP and population growth. Between 2005 - 2012 the nominal GDP of the US grew about 20% and the population grew over 5%. But electricity output over that same period only grew about 2%. The electricity output in the US grew slower than the population never mind the nominal GDP over that 7 year period. And the media since 2010 has been telling the people that there is a "resurgency of manufacturing" in the US.

Don't take my word for it go look up the data and do your own calculations.

Click to expand...

Dude, no statistics system in the world is remotely perfect, so it's all a matter of degrees. My claim is most reasonable people take numbers from institutions such as the Federal Reserve and Congressional Budget Office as relatively trustworthy, not because they're always correct, but because there are sufficient checks and balances to nail large discrepancies. Having said that, Americans also generally take statistics with lots of salt, because they instinctively understand Mark Twain's three kinds of lies: there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

advill said:

FYI Singapore has an opposition party that has won seats in Parliament, 8 during the last General Elections held 2 years ago. In recent times, the 2 by-elections were won by the opposition Workers Party. So if China wants to study the Singapore system, they have to seriously consider other parties besides its CPC involvement in Chinese politics. Maybe China should eventually allow the KMT to be accepted as a legitimate party, after all Taiwan is considered China's Province. Perhaps this is wishful thinking at the present time - maybe in future when the younger Chinese generation yearns for peoples' power.

Click to expand...

True, but let's be reasonable and agree Singapore has been dominated by the People's Action Party (PAP) since 1959, and is for all practical purposes a one-party government. Should the opposition ever gain control of the government, then that stigma goes away. The fact one party rule was done through democratic elections obfuscate what's at heart a single party political system, that's why the Communist Party of China studied Singapore so intently.

SamuraiBlue said:

Auh, what was the Chinese GDP during the 70's and 80's when receiving the bulk of ODA?
Also don't forget inflation adjustment while you are at it.

Click to expand...

Did you even bother to read your own website the aid started in 80

Official Development Assistance (ODA) to China began in 1979 and from that time to the present, approximately 3.1331 trillion yen in loan aid (yen loans), 145.7 billion yen in grant aid, and 144.6 billion yen in technical cooperation have been implemented.


No the bulk of aid did not even started in 80 at that time Chinese economy is around 200 billion dollar so using rough number of 10 billion spread over 10 years it less than 0.5% . So statistically just insignificant in the total economy