Chinese Engine Development

Mika Montero said:

In terms of dreadfully choking bottleneck on engine development ... ...

Has this 3DP_AM technological applications been missing from development of Xian WS-15 or maybe not ... ??

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Doubt it was lacking, but id doesn't solve main Chinese problem with engines , i.e. developing single-crystal superalloys with hight temperature resistance and low thermal creep . By the nature of things, such alloys could not be printed , they need to grow

thunderchief said:

Doubt it was lacking, but id doesn't solve main Chinese problem with engines , i.e. developing single-crystal superalloys with hight temperature resistance and low thermal creep . By the nature of things, such alloys could not be printed , they need to grow

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That's a myth that gets repeated so often it is treated as real. However, China's main problem with engines isn't the lack of ability to develop single-crystal blades. Keep in mind that China announced last year that she has the ability to make third generation single-crystal blades. In other words, China has already been making two generations of single-crystal blades!

Melting metal powder together using laser may sound simple, but the devil is in the details. Detail such as eliminating thermal stress between an area the size of a pin head that is several thousand degrees while the rest of the part is around room temperature. Or the detail such as the ability to control grain structure within the material during 3D printing. These have been achieved within China already. Controlling direction of grain structure is the precursor to manufacturing of single crystals. So 3D printing and production of single-crystal components are not mutally exclusive.

thunderchief said:

Doubt it was lacking, but id doesn't solve main Chinese problem with engines , i.e. developing single-crystal superalloys with hight temperature resistance and low thermal creep . By the nature of things, such alloys could not be printed , they need to grow

Click to expand...

It's not the development of these allows but the mass production and quality control of these alloys that China has had trouble with. Building the skilled labor to scale takes time. They're already way past the ability to develop the alloys.

... but the mass production and quality control of these alloys that China has had trouble with ... Building the skilled labor to scale takes time ...

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Using my pedestrian logic & my 1 cent knowledge, the quote above means ... ...

Skilled labor = Superb Master detail oriented Metal Smith


mass production means = Not enough < Superb Master detail oriented Metal Smith > to build the precise < Jigs & Fixtures > to hold and position the engine parts in place (such as Single-Crystal-Superalloy-Blades) during the manufacturing process.

If that is indeed the case, then 3DP_AM technique can be applied to build the precise < Jigs & Fixtures >, instead of building them manually. ~ And, 3DP_AM technique can be applied to build the precise ceramic molding for casting the Single-Crystal-Superalloy.

Further, 3DP_AM technique can be applied to interweave different layer of Single-Crystal-Superalloy using complex geometrical structure to break the grain boundary. This complex geometrical structure interweaving will minimize the thermal creep from occurring.

Or at the very least 3DP_AM will allow the engine designer in economically experimenting to find the most optimum interwoven complex geometrical structure in terms of building the blades that can handle extreme high temperature without the thermal creep.

IMHO:
What worry me is the Creative & Innovative & Unorthodox applications of 3DP_AM technology have been missing in the Shenyang-Liming (WS-10A) and Xian (WS-15) manufacturing processes or maybe not ... ... ??


For example check this link_1 :

Link_2:


Could some1 search the Chinese forums and enlighten me on the Creative & Innovative & Unorthodox application of 3DP_AM technology on the Chinese engine development process, such as the 2 links above ?? ~ Many thanks in advance

Mika Montero said:

Using my pedestrian logic & my pedestrian knowledge to me it means ... ...

Skilled labor = Superb Master detail oriented Metal Smith


mass production means = Not enough < Superb Master detail oriented Metal Smith > to build the precise < Jigs & Fixtures > to hold and position the engine parts in place (such as Single-Crystal-Superalloy-Blades) during the manufacturing process.

If that is indeed the case, then 3DP_AM technique can be applied to build the precise < Jigs & Fixtures >, instead of building them manually. ~ And, 3DP_AM technique can be applied to build the precise ceramic molding for casting the Single-Crystal-Superalloy.

Further, 3DP_AM technique can be applied to interweave different layer of Single-Crystal-Superalloy using complex geometrical structure to break the grain boundary. This complex geometrical structure interweaving will minimize the thermal creep from occurring.

Or at the very least 3DP_AM will allow the engine designer in economically experimenting to find the most optimum complex geometrical structure in terms of building the blades that can handle extreme high temperature without the thermal creep.

What worry me is the Creative & Innovative & Unorthodox applications of 3DP_AM technology have been missing in the Shenyang-Liming (WS-10A) and Xian (WS-15) manufacturing processes or maybe not ... ... ??


For example check this link_1 :

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Link_2:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Could some1 search the Chinese forums and enlighten me on the Creative & Innovative & Unorthodox application of 3DP_AM technology on the Chinese engine development process ?? ~ Many thanks in advance


View attachment 10836

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3D printing simplifies and eliminates the need for skilled labour for a lot of engineering tasks. Unfortunately with the current capabilities of 3D printing (at least to my understanding) the fan blades, the heart of the gas turbine engine, is not one of them.

The biggest challenge right now with 3DP is the density of the strand layers (eliminating the small air pockets formed within the material during print) and the ability to use and combine multiple composites & alloys in a single print.

It's developing quickly, the overall technology, but I don't think it's anywhere near ready for core engine component manufacturing right now. Eventually though.

Engineer said:

That's a myth that gets repeated so often it is treated as real. However, China's main problem with engines isn't the lack of ability to develop single-crystal blades. Keep in mind that China announced last year that she has the ability to make third generation single-crystal blades. In other words, China has already been making two generations of single-crystal blades!

Click to expand...

I didn't say China could not produce single-crystal blades (we know they could , most likely use them in WS-10) , I'm saying China is lagging in this technology behind US and Russia .

Engineer said:

Melting metal powder together using laser may sound simple, but the devil is in the details. Detail such as eliminating thermal stress between an area the size of a pin head that is several thousand degrees while the rest of the part is around room temperature. Or the detail such as the ability to control grain structure within the material during 3D printing. These have been achieved within China already. Controlling direction of grain structure is the precursor to manufacturing of single crystals. So 3D printing and production of single-crystal components are not mutally exclusive.

Click to expand...

They are not mutually exclusive, but you cannot print single crystal because by definition 3D printing creates grain boundaries . You said it yourself, area with the size of pinhead is heated, while rest of the part is at room temperature .

thunderchief said:

I didn't say China could not produce single-crystal blades (we know they could , most likely use them in WS-10) , I'm saying China is lagging in this technology behind US and Russia .

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The rumour mill suggests that China's research into single crystal alloys was already quite advanced by the mid 2000s, but that the adoption of this research into development was slow tracked out of the desire to be careful and conservative. As is often the case these days in China, the research arm isn't very far behind, but the lack experience with implementation and application means it usually takes more effort to mature a solution and go to market.

thunderchief said:

I didn't say China could not produce single-crystal blades (we know they could , most likely use them in WS-10) , I'm saying China is lagging in this technology behind US and Russia .



They are not mutually exclusive, but you cannot print single crystal because by definition 3D printing creates grain boundaries . You said it yourself, area with the size of pinhead is heated, while rest of the part is at room temperature .

Click to expand...

The problem of thrmal stress is a different problem to creating single-crystal via 3D printing method.

Engineer said:

Melting metal powder together using laser may sound simple, but the devil is in the details. Detail such as eliminating thermal stress between an area the size of a pin head that is several thousand degrees while the rest of the part is around room temperature. Or the detail such as the ability to control grain structure within the material during 3D printing. These have been achieved within China already. Controlling direction of grain structure is the precursor to manufacturing of single crystals. So 3D printing and production of single-crystal components are not mutally exclusive.

Click to expand...

I don't suppose you have any details on that process? Thanks