Chinese Engine Development

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

Whether a 15 T:W engine could be installed onto the J-20 would really depend on the dimensions of the engine, so it's really impossible to say for now, but I do think that by the time China can make a 15 T:W engine reliability may no longer be the kind of issue where it would necessitate testing on a different design first.
I would not be looking for a 15:1 Thrust Weight ratio jet engine in the near future. That capability is still beyond the current state of the art for fighter/attack jet aircraft.

I believe the current highest thrust to weight ratio for any jet engine that went into full production was the Pratt and Whitney F-119 afterburning turbofan for the F-22. It is right around 7.95 T:W and the F-22 of course carriers two of them.

The Pratt & Whitney F-135 that is going to power the Joint Strike Fighter (which is not in full production yet) has an 11.35 T:W ratio. So, within a couple of years, there will be a production T:W ratio engine of 11.35. Maybe two of those will ppower the FXX prgram in the future.

I believe the prototype for the Shenyang/Xian WS-15 has reached something like 9 T:W, with a desired goal of T:W of around 10 for production, which will be very good actually.

The Russian Al-41F that was prototyped on a Mig-25 testbed in the late 1980s, and then later flew on the cancelled MIG Project 1.44 MFI in 2000. It reportedly had an 11:1 T:W ratio, but it never went into production.

Once a higher T:W engines is produced, it will be mated to an airframe that was designed to take advantage of it. Do you think that the J-20 is designed for that? The F-35 may be getting close, but it was not designed with a 15:1 T:W ratio jet engine in mind.

Personally, at this stage, I will be happy to see China go into full production with a current state of the art angine for the J-20, J-15, J-16 etc. in the near future. The WS-15 appears to be that engine at this point.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

I would not be looking for a 15:1 Thrust Weight ratio jet engine in the near future. That capability is still beyond the current state of the art for fighter/attack jet aircraft.

I believe the current highest thrust to weight ratio for any jet engine that went into full production was the Pratt and Whitney F-119 afterburning turbofan for the F-22. It is right around 7.95 T:W and the F-22 of course carriers two of them.

The Pratt & Whitney F-135 that is going to power the Joint Strike Fighter (which is not in full production yet) has an 11.35 T:W ratio. So, within a couple of years, there will be a production T:W ratio engine of 11.35. Maybe two of those will ppower the FXX prgram in the future.

I believe the prototype for the Shenyang/Xian WS-15 has reached something like 9 T:W, with a desired goal of T:W of around 10 for production, which will be very good actually.

The Russian Al-41F that was prototyped on a Mig-25 testbed in the late 1980s, and then later flew on the cancelled MIG Project 1.44 MFI in 2000. It reportedly had an 11:1 T:W ratio, but it never went into production.

Once a higher T:W engines is produced, it will be mated to an airframe that was designed to take advantage of it. Do you think that the J-20 is designed for that? The F-35 may be getting close, but it was not designed with a 15:1 T:W ratio jet engine in mind.

Personally, at this stage, I will be happy to see China go into full production with a current state of the art angine for the J-20, J-15, J-16 etc. in the near future. The WS-15 appears to be that engine at this point.

Whether a 15 T:W ratio engine will happen or not, we've known that China has been working on one since at least 2006 (the information was given by Maya, who has been extremely reliable in the past). We've also heard that the US is also working on this for the F-XX so that seems pretty certain to be the direction everyone is headed. Personally I do not think the J-20 would be mated with one. The news only says that the plan is to finish building the core by 2016. That's very preliminary, and it could be at least a decade after before an actual prototype is finished testing.

Anyinfo in what class of thrust they are ... maybe even what aircraft is planned to use them ?? :confused:

Thanks in advance,
Deino
The article only drops those designations on the side. It primarily talks about the progress in machining tools. When this article came out a lot of people were asking questions about it in the Chinese bbs, but there was nothing else. Very mysterious.
 
Last edited:

weig2000

Captain
Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

I believe the current highest thrust to weight ratio for any jet engine that went into full production was the Pratt and Whitney F-119 afterburning turbofan for the F-22. It is right around 7.95 T:W and the F-22 of course carriers two of them.

...

I believe the prototype for the Shenyang/Xian WS-15 has reached something like 9 T:W, with a desired goal of T:W of around 10 for production, which will be very good actually.

...

Personally, at this stage, I will be happy to see China go into full production with a current state of the art angine for the J-20, J-15, J-16 etc. in the near future. The WS-15 appears to be that engine at this point.

I have always believed F-119 has a T:W ratio of approximately 10 and WS-15 has been targeting F-119 in that respect. It is said WS-15 is not there (T:W = 10) yet, but is close (9). Are you using a different calculation of T:W ratio for F-119?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

I have always believed F-119 has a T:W ratio of approximately 10 and WS-15 has been targeting F-119 in that respect. It is said WS-15 is not there (T:W = 10) yet, but is close (9). Are you using a different calculation of T:W ratio for F-119?

Jeff Head is getting those numbers from an official PW document. Everyone agrees about the thrust provided by the F119, but it seems that the weight of the engine is in dispute.

I'm not sure the news that the WS-15 has only managed to achieve a T:W ratio of 9 could be treated as reliable. There's a lot of false information floating around, the most common ones of which are based around an article that gave a lot of details of the WS-15 and its development, including its T:W ratio (8.86), inlet temperature, etc. It claimed that the WS-15 was developed from the Yak-141's RD-41 and that a variant was going to be installed in a VTOL in 2013. That latter but is how we know it's fake, which makes the rest of the articles claim suspect.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Anyinfo in what class of thrust they are ... maybe even what aircraft is planned to use them ?? :confused:

Thanks in advance,
Deino

I would suppose that they are using it for J-31, supplanting RD-93. I am surprised at the resources dedicated to medium thrust engines.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

I read somewhere that USAF will continue using F-15Es well into 2030, and even the most optmistic data point to an IOC date of around 2030. By then the majority of USAF fleet will consist of the 190 F-22s and thousands of F-35s. Given the technological gap between PLAAF and USAF, which I'll generously put at a decade and half, it isn't inconceivable for later block J-10Bs and J-16s to remain in service by the late 2040s.

There is also precendent of fighters like the F-14, which initially used a relatively underpowered (for its size) TF-30, switching to the much more powerful F-110 once it was ready. In fact, I think it is a great idea to use the J-20, by then a mature platform, to test the operational capabilities of the new engine for the sixth generation platform, assuming that China is comfortable enough by then with engine tech to attempt something as crazy as this.

I believe you are right on here siege, and likely the new J-20 inlets are designed to optimize Al-31 performance in the J-20 airframe, in order to push the J-20's performance envelope outward in all aspects, higher AOA, to higher Mach, and to maximize the super-cruise capability.
 
Top