Chinese Engine Development

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latenlazy

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Re: Updates on Chinese engines...

by78 said:
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An interesting article from the official Xinhua news agency, and it summarizes various Chinese engine projects.

The pertinent passage is this:

宣布发动机“两个专项”
　　目前，航空发动机和燃气轮机“两机”科技重大专项已经顺利成为国家第20个重大技术专项，与空天飞机和高超音速飞行器专项一起成为国家航空航天领域的重要突破。“两机专项”包括国家重点军用两用发动机项目研制、对现有发动机进行改进以及探索和预研新一代发动机项目。预计涡扇-15发动机将于2014完成验证机；涡扇-10改发动机将于2015首飞；长江-1000A发动机将于2016年首飞；空天发动机将于2016年挂飞；推比15一级的第五代发动机将于2016年完成核心机... 航空发动机含铼高温合金单晶叶片...

My Chinese is horrible, but here's a summary (likely with many errors):

1) WS-15 prototype/demonstrator is to be completed in 2014.
2) A modified WS-10 is to have first flight in 2015. I'm not sure if this WS-10A or B or some other variant.
3) CJ-1000A (Yangtze-1000A) high-bypass turbofan to have first flight in 2016.
4) '空天发动机'? Whatever this is, will conduct flight tests in 2016.
5) '推比15', which is a 'fifth-generation' engine, is to complete core tests in 2016.
6) Pursue the development of 'Rhenium single-crystal super-alloy blades'.

I'd really appreciate it if someone could provide an accurate translation.

P.S. the rest of the article could be interesting as well.
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Yours is accurate enough. The information listed is pretty straight forward. My guess is that the WS-10 variant might be a WS-10B, or the long rumoured WS-10G. 空天发动机 probably refers to the engines for a spaceplane. The 15 T:W's core itself will be completed in 2016, not its testing.

I think this information is pretty legit. The overall article discusses topics that are going to be brought up at the annual CPCC and NPC meetings. The information provided doesn't really overreach and seems to conform with what we currently know about most of these projects. The article doesn't really give us anything more than specific dates, which is usually more typical of official information and not speculative or faked articles.
 
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Blitzo

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

I wonder what kind of aircraft would be equipped with a TW=15 engine...
 
siegecrossbow

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

Bltizo said:
I wonder what kind of aircraft would be equipped with a TW=15 engine...
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J-20? If they complete core testing then "TW=15 engine" could conceivably be ready for block three in the 2020s.
In short, significant news for J-20, Shenlong, and domestic transport plane, if you know what to look for.
 
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latenlazy

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

siegecrossbow said:
J-20? If they complete core testing then "TW=15 engine" could conceivably be ready for block two in 2020.
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They probably won't complete core testing by 2020. My reading of that line is that they would finish building the core by 2016, which means that the earliest they will begin testing the core is at that time. Core testing, prototype building, and then prototype testing could all take another decade if not longer, which means we reasonably shouldn't expect the engine to be ready until the mid 2020s earliest, which may be indicative of when China will begin development of the J-20's successor, if there are no major setbacks.
 
siegecrossbow

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

latenlazy said:
They probably won't complete core testing by 2020. My reading of that line is that they would finish building the core by 2016, which means that the earliest they will begin testing the core is at that time. Core testing, prototype building, and then prototype testing could all take another decade if not longer, which means we reasonably shouldn't expect the engine to be ready until the mid 2020s earliest, which may be indicative of when China will begin development of the J-20's successor, if there are no major setbacks.
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There is no reason that a later block J-20 won't be able to use the new engine. I think it is safe to assume that most PLAAF 4th and 5th gen fighters will stay in service well into the 2030s.
 
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latenlazy

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

siegecrossbow said:
There is no reason that a later block J-20 won't be able to use the new engine. I think it is safe to assume that most PLAAF 4th and 5th gen fighters will stay in service well into the 2030s.
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Hmmm...unless the engine dimensions don't fit or aren't designed for the J-20? It's way too early to be sure of anything right now. If future J-20 blocks are looking for increased thrust, I'm sure more work will be continuing on the WS-15's core. Any engine performance gains I imagine would likely come from that, and not an entirely new engine.

I imagine that the PLAAF will begin to retire their 4th gen fighters by 2030. If they begin development of the J-20's predecessor in around 2025-2030, we wouldn't expect it to see it in production until at least 2040 (unless the US begins to increase its pace of development and begin on a 6th gen design by that time). It would be nice though for the PLAAF to have an engine ready before they begin building demonstration and production prototyping for a future 6th generation fighter. The 2025-2030 timeline seems amenable to those niceties.
 
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Blitzo

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

latenlazy said:
If they begin development of the J-20's predecessor in around 2025-2030, we wouldn't expect it to see it in production until at least 2040 (unless the US begins to increase its pace of development and begin on a 6th gen design by that time).
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Lel.

But I agree, it would be nice for once to have an engine that can be paired with the first prototype airframe on the get go rather than using a previous generation substitute. Maybe 6th gen will be the one.
 
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latenlazy

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

Bltizo said:
Lel.

But I agree, it would be nice for once to have an engine that can be paired with the first prototype airframe on the get go rather than using a previous generation substitute. Maybe 6th gen will be the one.
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You know what I meant...
 
siegecrossbow

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Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

latenlazy said:
Hmmm...unless the engine dimensions don't fit or aren't designed for the J-20? It's way too early to be sure of anything right now. If future J-20 blocks are looking for increased thrust, I'm sure more work will be continuing on the WS-15's core. Any engine performance gains I imagine would likely come from that, and not an entirely new engine.

I imagine that the PLAAF will begin to retire their 4th gen fighters by 2030. If they begin development of the J-20's predecessor in around 2025-2030, we wouldn't expect it to see it in production until at least 2040 (unless the US begins to increase its pace of development and begin on a 6th gen design by that time). It would be nice though for the PLAAF to have an engine ready before they begin building demonstration and production prototyping for a future 6th generation fighter. The 2025-2030 timeline seems amenable to those niceties.
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I read somewhere that USAF will continue using F-15Es well into 2030, and even the most optmistic data point to an IOC date of around 2030. By then the majority of USAF fleet will consist of the 190 F-22s and thousands of F-35s. Given the technological gap between PLAAF and USAF, which I'll generously put at a decade and half, it isn't inconceivable for later block J-10Bs and J-16s to remain in service by the late 2040s.

There is also precendent of fighters like the F-14, which initially used a relatively underpowered (for its size) TF-30, switching to the much more powerful F-110 once it was ready. In fact, I think it is a great idea to use the J-20, by then a mature platform, to test the operational capabilities of the new engine for the sixth generation platform, assuming that China is comfortable enough by then with engine tech to attempt something as crazy as this.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Chinese Engine Developmentt

siegecrossbow said:
I read somewhere that USAF will continue using F-15Es well into 2030, and even the most optmistic data point to an IOC date of around 2030. By then the majority of USAF fleet will consist of the 190 F-22s and thousands of F-35s. Given the technological gap between PLAAF and USAF, which I'll generously put at a decade and half, it isn't inconceivable for later block J-10Bs and J-16s to remain in service by the late 2040s.

There is also precendent of fighters like the F-14, which initially used a relatively underpowered (for its size) TF-30, switching to the much more powerful F-110 once it was ready. In fact, I think it is a great idea to use the J-20, by then a mature platform, to test the operational capabilities of the new engine for the sixth generation platform, assuming that China is comfortable enough by then with engine tech to attempt something as crazy as this.
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I agree that it's not inconceivable. When I said "begin to retire" I meant that the very first J-11s and J-10s would be retired, not the entire design, much like what they're doing with the F-15 and F-16 now.

Whether a 15 T:W engine could be installed onto the J-20 would really depend on the dimensions of the engine, so it's really impossible to say for now, but I do think that by the time China can make a 15 T:W engine reliability may no longer be the kind of issue where it would necessitate testing on a different design first.
 
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