Chinese Engine Development

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

If my country can achieve America's 1990s engine technology in 30 to 40 years I will be damn happy already

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My friend, lemme impart something that I believe in .......... When you think, think BIG and when you aim for something, Aim High!!!

I feel that China can and will achieve parity with the rest of the leading countries, in technology. At the rapid pace with which China is developing and progressing, I'd say forget 1990s, cuz by the next decade, they just might take the lead!

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Dizasta1 said:

My friend, lemme impart something that I believe in .......... When you think, think BIG and when you aim for something, Aim High!!!

I feel that China can and will achieve parity with the rest of the leading countries, in technology. At the rapid pace with which China is developing and progressing, I'd say forget 1990s, cuz by the next decade, they just might take the lead!

Click to expand...

I'll die of happiness if in the next decade we can catch up to 1990s top tier engine technology.

Engines are different from anything else, by nature. It requires not only will, fund, researchers and scientists and capable technicians and workers, it also requires time and experience and continuous usage and development. These are things that simply can't be accelerated.

Besides, engines require an enormous amount of testing of new materials and new manufacturing techniques. It also requires a strong foundation in material science and research.These stuff needs decades of continuous effort and funding.

Chinese people today are too concerned with being fast and speed. But there's an old Chinese saying that goes like 'You won't reach your goals if you rush it'. This precisely describes the engine industry. Everyone wants awards, titles, higher pays, or promotions and want to see results fast. But hardly no one is willing to put their head down, respect science and work hard for it.

That's a problem in today's Chinese society as a whole, not only the engine industry or aviation industry.

In fact the rocket and satellite guys have so much better reputation. I really respect those guys for what they have done and are doing.

SAC and Liming has almost shit like reputation among Chinese forums, whereas Chengdu is so much better. SAC and Liming are too bureacratic and there's too many cliques interested not in the greater good of the country but their personal and group interests.

That's why I'm pessimistic.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

Because it's simply not possible.

Make the mental preparation that it's still Al31 and it will enter service with AL31.

Any hope on Chinese indigenous engines are doomed to burst...countless disappointments have taught me this lesson the hard way.

Any expectation will only bring great disappointments and nothing more.

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J-16 and J-15 fitted with WS-10 taught me that domestic engine definitely is possible and have enter operation with the combat squadron.

It is the domestic engine that power the maiden flight of J-16 and J-15S. This definitely proves the WS-10 design is stable and achieve satisfactory result from PLAAF that they decide to task it for the highly dangerous initial flight of those prototype.

We have even seen photo of WS-20 engine undergoing flight test and those photo are not definitely new. Meaning these tests had already been going on sometime. Domestic design engine seems to be going according to plan.

Finally we have known of the SF-A civilian engine developed from WS_15 core which proves WS-15 design is stable and meeting the goal. I will not write off WS-15 fitted on J-20 2011 so soon.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Lion said:

J-16 and J-15 fitted with WS-10 taught me that domestic engine definitely is possible and have enter operation with the combat squadron.

It is the domestic engine that power the maiden flight of J-16 and J-15S. This definitely proves the WS-10 design is stable and achieve satisfactory result from PLAAF that they decide to task it for the highly dangerous initial flight of those prototype.

We have even seen photo of WS-20 engine undergoing flight test and those photo are not definitely new. Meaning these tests had already been going on sometime. Domestic design engine seems to be going according to plan.

Finally we have known of the SF-A civilian engine developed from WS_15 core which proves WS-15 design is stable and meeting the goal. I will not write off WS-15 fitted on J-20 2011 so soon.

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'Being used' does not equal good. They have to mass produce it and fit them on aircrafts to expose problems and accumulate hours and put the engines to real in-flight scenarios to let it mature. That in itself doesn't really mean that the engine is good.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

'Being used' does not equal good. They have to mass produce it and fit them on aircrafts to expose problems and accumulate hours and put the engines to real in-flight scenarios to let it mature. That in itself doesn't really mean that the engine is good.

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You forget the initial flight test trial which I mention. It not just about being used. Its about being choosen as the engine to power an initial flight prototype. Any flight enthusiast knows this is the most dangerous part of any new design aircraft.

Are you telling me PLAAF decide to jeopardise with their country national project using a not so mature and not so proven engine for such task?

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Lion said:

You forget the initial flight test trial which I mention. It not just about being used. Its about being choosen as the engine to power an initial flight prototype. Any flight enthusiast knows this is the most dangerous part of any new design aircraft.

Are you telling me PLAAF decide to jeopardise with their country national project using a not so mature and not so proven engine for such task?

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J10B used AL31 for first flight, J15 used it too, as well as first carrier take off. J20 used it too for first flight. As much as I don't want this to be the case but it actually happened. As a matter of fact all the more important projects used AL31 to power their initial flights.... Ad the J10B, a single engine aircraft is still using Al31.

Well let's get back on topic and discuss this inthe engine thread

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

J10B used AL31 for first flight, J15 used it too, as well as first carrier take off. J20 used it too for first flight. As much as I don't want this to be the case but it actually happened. As a matter of fact all the more important projects used AL31 to power their initial flights.... Ad the J10B, a single engine aircraft is still using Al31.

Well let's get back on topic and discuss this inthe engine thread

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You shall have realise the aircraft you mention is much earlier than J-16 and J-15S. This proves domestic engine is mature over the time and is the reason why domestic engine is picked over AL-31 engine for later project. You wouldn't expect WS-10 to even power initial flight prototype of J-10A, right?

J-20 2011 will be the next latest China customer to use domestic engine for initial flight test.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

I'll die of happiness if in the next decade we can catch up to 1990s top tier engine technology.

Engines are different from anything else, by nature. It requires not only will, fund, researchers and scientists and capable technicians and workers, it also requires time and experience and continuous usage and development. These are things that simply can't be accelerated.

Besides, engines require an enormous amount of testing of new materials and new manufacturing techniques. It also requires a strong foundation in material science and research.These stuff needs decades of continuous effort and funding.

Chinese people today are too concerned with being fast and speed. But there's an old Chinese saying that goes like 'You won't reach your goals if you rush it'. This precisely describes the engine industry. Everyone wants awards, titles, higher pays, or promotions and want to see results fast. But hardly no one is willing to put their head down, respect science and work hard for it.

That's a problem in today's Chinese society as a whole, not only the engine industry or aviation industry.

In fact the rocket and satellite guys have so much better reputation. I really respect those guys for what they have done and are doing.

SAC and Liming has almost shit like reputation among Chinese forums, whereas Chengdu is so much better. SAC and Liming are too bureacratic and there's too many cliques interested not in the greater good of the country but their personal and group interests.

That's why I'm pessimistic.

Click to expand...

OT - Why do you think we hmm 'invited' a bunch of German rocket scientists and engineers to the US right after WWII ?
there is no doubt they played a critical role in the acceleration and advancement of America's engine and rocket development including the Apollo program.
China needs to go hmm invite scientists form other countries to accelerate things... LOL

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Lion said:

You shall have realise the aircraft you mention is much earlier than J-16 and J-15S. This proves domestic engine is mature over the time and is the reason why domestic engine is picked over AL-31 engine for later project. You wouldn't expect WS-10 to even power initial flight prototype of J-10A, right?

J-20 2011 will be the next latest China customer to use domestic engine for initial flight test.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what the critics or naysayers thinks, as long as China has a sustainable program to produce both highly efficient aircraft and engines, it will be fine. To me it's all about the program. It's the people, talent, skills, money, and the will that can sustain the R&D to continue for decades to come is a sign of success. An example would be the US aircraft carrier program and the Apollo space program. Looks what happened when the government no longer funded the Apollo program, as a result NASA hasn't gone back to the moon in decades. Meanwhile the carrier program had sufficient funding for decades and it's still going strong. Without money and will of the government you can't sustain a reliable and efficient program to innovate new or improve science research and products.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Bltizo said:

First of all, calm down with the exclamation marks.

Second of all, if F110 were really that much of an inferior engine than F100, then why did the USAF (and the world) equip their F-16s with F110, why did south korea and singapore select F110 to power their F-15K and F-15SG instead of the F100 which the USAF used for their F-15Es? Why did Japan select F110 for their F-2s?

I don't know where you're getting the idea that F110 is an inferior engine to F100, or that somehow translates to something about WS-10s performance just because both have CFM-56 as a distant ancestor.

I'm honestly at a loss.

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Because F-110 has larger by pass ratio just like the WS-10A around 0.8. This make the engine more fuel efficient than the F-100 which has a by pass ratio of just 0.36 and AL-31F with 0.6.

F-110 and WS-10A are better for fighter bomber or strike fighters like F-15E, F-15K, J-16 and even J-15. But for pure air to air combat F-100 and AL-31F are superior due to their better acceleration (smaller by pass ratio !!!))

This is why F-15C, and F-16 use F-100 while F-15E/E, F-15K and J-16 all use F-100 and WS-10A !!