Chinese Engine Development

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

I'm Chinese national. I'm referring to China when I say My Country. I hope for the best but couldn't expect anything. And I wouldn't change my pessimism when all modern Chinese fighters, bombers, heavy lifters, AWACS, helicopters, commercial airliners are fitted with indigenous engines.

At least the US has done that, even before 1990s.

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To have all modern chinese aircraft fitted with indigenous engines means that all indigenous chinese engines must be better than foreign competitors (which may be cheaper, more effective etc), which is simply a ridiculous standard to hold them to, because to be better than all foreign competitors is basically equivalent to China being convincingly number one in all domains.

Needlessly ambitious and unrealistic.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

If my country can achieve America's 1990s engine technology in 30 to 40 years I will be damn happy already

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The WS10A is likely a rough match for the F110 from the 1980 era and the WS15 is probably a match for the F119 from the 1990 era.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Bltizo said:

To have all modern chinese aircraft fitted with indigenous engines means that all indigenous chinese engines must be better than foreign competitors (which may be cheaper, more effective etc), which is simply a ridiculous standard to hold them to, because to be better than all foreign competitors is basically equivalent to China being convincingly number one in all domains.

Needlessly ambitious and unrealistic.

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To be fair, my read was that he was speaking of military engines for their fighters and attack aircraft and how nice it would be if the PRC could get to a point where they were powered by Chinese indigenous engines that met the needs and expectations of the design.

Not a bad thing at all to hope for from numerous perspectives.

First would be that it would mean that the Chinese jet engine manufacturing capability for military engines had reached near parity with the West and with Russia. Not a bad thing to hope for.

Second, it would mean that the PRC was able to produce these engines itself and would not be beholden to or dependent on any foreign power for these vital parts of its military logistical chain. Again, a very worthwhile thing to hope for.

I did not view his comments in any way as a slight on the PRC. He seems to be a very well read young man who is very patriotic and dedicated to his homeland. It was just something he hoped for, and it was couched in a big dose of reality.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Jeff Head said:

To be fair, my read was that he was speaking of military engines for their fighters and attack aircraft and how nice it would be if the PRC could get to a point where they were powered by Chinese indigenous engines that met the needs and expectations of the design.

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Well, quoting from him, he spoke of other aircraft too:

xiabonan said:

I'm Chinese national. I'm referring to China when I say My Country. I hope for the best but couldn't expect anything. And I wouldn't change my pessimism when all modern Chinese fighters, bombers, heavy lifters, AWACS, helicopters, commercial airliners are fitted with indigenous engines.

At least the US has done that, even before 1990s.

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That is just unrealistic.

Like preux said, even the 787 is powered by british engines.
For all Chinese commercial airliners to run on indigenous engines is as much of a pipe dream for China as it would be for any other nation.

Not a bad thing at all to hope for from numerous perspectives.

First would be that it would mean that the Chinese jet engine manufacturing capability for military engines had reached near parity with the West and with Russia. Not a bad thing to hope for.

Second, it would mean that the PRC was able to produce these engines itself and would not be beholden to or dependent on any foreign power for these vital parts of its military logistical chain. Again, a very worthwhile thing to hope for.

I did not view his comments in any way as a slight on the PRC. He seems to be a very well read young man who is very patriotic and dedicated to his homeland. It was just something he hoped for, and it was couched in a big dose of reality.

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I did not interpret his comments as a slight of any kind, however I did interpret his standards on becoming less pessemistic as wildly unrealistic, especially in the commercial airliner domain.

Fact is, that as long as there is competition in engines, China will never power all of their aircraft with indigenous plants, military and commercial in particular. Oh sure, China might have the capability to pump out engines that are as good as russian or western ones, and even produce them in good enough number. But even if a non Chinese engine is better by a percent in reducing cost, with no meaningful impact on availability and access, then the non Chinese engine is going to be selected.

That is to say, having the industry to build excellent engines doesn't mean your engines are going to be selected because there will be competing, better engines out there, and just because a foreign engine might be used en masse doesn't mean an engine of similar performance cannot be reliably produced in such numbers either.


In future I expect we will have to sever perceptions of how much indigenous engine equip rate says about the actual indigenous engine industry.


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Personally I'm not so sure what there is to be pessimistic about in the first place. The industry currently has a decent number of engine programs in advanced development in virtually every major category to power every type of aircraft. Sure, it's going to be a few years until they all kick into full production, but there aren't many countries which can do that in the first place.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Bltizo said:

Well, quoting from him, he spoke of other aircraft too:

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I missed the part about the heavy lifters and particularly the commercial aircraft and agree that such a measure or expectation is unreasonable.

The US and no other country that I am aware of has every single aircraft, military and commercial, operating on their own indigenous engines.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Okay I apologize that I didn't make my points clear.

First, I'm not saying that I will only be contended if all Chinese engines are better than others. That's unrealistic. I'm just hoping that Chinese engines are useable enough to power our own aircrafts. All military aircrafts (maybe a small number of imports or old imported engines that's used in existing aircrafts).

Regarding the commercial airliners, sorry I didn't make it clear. I would be more than happy and proud if China has up to standard mass produced commercial engines. After all today's aircrafts use parts manufactured in different parts of the world and sometimes even the same model is powered by different engines, that I do know and understand.

In short, what I'm hoping for is one, or two, world-class companies that can compete with Rolls Royce, or Pratt&Whitney, or General Electrics.

I want to see our own RR, PW, or GE, that in terms of commerical aircraft engines, is able to mass produce reliable and state-of-the art engines.

Maybe if I'm lucky, I will see such Chinese company in my lifetime.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

Okay I apologize that I didn't make my points clear.

First, I'm not saying that I will only be contended if all Chinese engines are better than others. That's unrealistic. I'm just hoping that Chinese engines are useable enough to power our own aircrafts. All military aircrafts (maybe a small number of imports or old imported engines that's used in existing aircrafts).

Regarding the commercial airliners, sorry I didn't make it clear. I would be more than happy and proud if China has up to standard mass produced commercial engines. After all today's aircrafts use parts manufactured in different parts of the world and sometimes even the same model is powered by different engines, that I do know and understand.

In short, what I'm hoping for is one, or two, world-class companies that can compete with Rolls Royce, or Pratt&Whitney, or General Electrics.

I want to see our own RR, PW, or GE, that in terms of commerical aircraft engines, is able to mass produce reliable and state-of-the art engines.

Maybe if I'm lucky, I will see such Chinese company in my lifetime.

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being too pessimistic is not good. btw, what you have done to your beloved country to achieve your dreams???, of course apart from being pessimistic

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

Okay I apologize that I didn't make my points clear.

First, I'm not saying that I will only be contended if all Chinese engines are better than others. That's unrealistic. I'm just hoping that Chinese engines are useable enough to power our own aircrafts. All military aircrafts (maybe a small number of imports or old imported engines that's used in existing aircrafts).

Regarding the commercial airliners, sorry I didn't make it clear. I would be more than happy and proud if China has up to standard mass produced commercial engines. After all today's aircrafts use parts manufactured in different parts of the world and sometimes even the same model is powered by different engines, that I do know and understand.

In short, what I'm hoping for is one, or two, world-class companies that can compete with Rolls Royce, or Pratt&Whitney, or General Electrics.

I want to see our own RR, PW, or GE, that in terms of commerical aircraft engines, is able to mass produce reliable and state-of-the art engines.

Maybe if I'm lucky, I will see such Chinese company in my lifetime.

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If it makes you feel any better I understood what you meant LOL. You're basically saying you want to see 100% made in China engines to be mature enough to be competitive in the world market. Weather they are actually selected is secondary but they are at least there in the running and second to none.

When it comes to commercial aviation a lot of factors come into play and most times performance comes in a distant third or fourth. There are the usual politicking and lobbying and what not that goes on.
As you grow older and move into the 'real world' you'll realized that a LOT of acquisitions both civilian and military has more to do with politics, ass kissing than actual real world performance and capabilities.

Back to your original question I don't think you have to be that pessismistic. I think it's only a matter of time before China becomes competitive in the world of jet turbines. Maybe not this year or even next but certainly in your lifetime since you're still pretty young.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

xiabonan said:

I'm Chinese national. I'm referring to China when I say My Country. I hope for the best but couldn't expect anything. And I wouldn't change my pessimism when all modern Chinese fighters, bombers, heavy lifters, AWACS, helicopters, commercial airliners are fitted with indigenous engines.

At least the US has done that, even before 1990s.

Click to expand...

You are too pessimistic. Given the fact that china today has access more advanced level of basic science as well as many design tools superior to what would have been available even to elite American engine designers during the 1960, 1970s, and 1980s, it would be reasonable to suppose the rate of engine technology advancement in china today at least equal to the rate attained amongst elite American engine designers during the 30 years prior to 1990.

If the rate of Chinese engine development matches American engine development in the 30 years prior to 1990, then the only way for china to require another 30 years to match 1990 American engine technology would be if current Chinese engine technology stands at where American engine technology was in 1960. This is clearly not the case. WS-10 from about 2006 is likely at or slightly ahead of F-100 engine level, which represents approximately 1975 American technology(f-100 was flown earlier but it was too technologically ambitious for the date of its first flight). This puts china today at approximately 1982-1985 on the scale of American engine technology.

If china progress no faster than Americans did during the 1980s, then it seems reasonable to expect flight worthy Chinese engine broadly comparable to f-119, or 1990 American level, not in 20-30 years, but in 5-7 years.

It is not entirely clear what the main thrust of engine technology development in the US had been since 1990. But knowing exactly what the main thrusts are does inform any estimate of how difficult it would be for china, post WS-15, to close the gap. For example, if the main thrust relies on increased computational power and better 3D gas dynamic simulation, then I would expect the Chinese to be able to close the gap fairly quickly, as it relies largely on general state of technology not proprietary to jet engine development.

But if they main thrust is in esoteric materials without much application in any other field, then I expect it would take china a long time to close the gap as the Chinese engine developers would have to repeat essentially all of the dedicates Leg work the Americans have done, and can't simply rely on the broad based advancement in general science and technology to bring them closer to where the Americans are, in rising water floating all boats fashion.

As to Chinese engine being competitive with GE, PW, and RR commercially, that would indeed be much further off than the date of first flight of Chinese g5 military turbofan. Developing a commercially competitive jet engine is actually substantially more challenging than developing a militarily competitive jet engine. Military jet engines have captive markets. So long as the engine meets a few major design criteria it will fly and is usually good enough, especially in peace time. Commercially competitive engine by definition must rely on competition to succeed and can't rely on captive markets. In here no failings would be left unexposed. So you really gave to be very nearly as good as the best in literally every way to be competitive. Notice USSR/Russia has long had military jet engines good enough to capture half of the works's military jet engine market. But to this day hasn't come up with a single commercial jet engine competitive in the open world commercial market.

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

WRT commercial engines there is the matter of the investment in maintenance facilities around the world. An existing supplier has a huge investment in these, largely paid by independent companies, that the newcomer cannot duplicate in the short or even the medium term.
The US companies were massively helped by the bomber engines for B-47 and B-52 giving the Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8 a performance far superior to the DH Comet. The Pentagon financed both P&W and GE to develop the engines. The next step, engines with high by-pass ratio, was undertaken to enable the development of a large military transport which became the Lockheed C-5. The loser of that transport competition was Boeing which went on to to derive its 747 from its transport design! Rolls-Royce saw itself becoming totally irrelevant unless they also produced a HBR engine. But the RB211 broke the company when the choice for carbon fiber fan blades proved to be too ambitious. The conservative government of the UK nationalized RR and paid for the redesign. So three companies established an oligopoly in civilian aircraft engines due to massive government support for which the pay back was the ability to develop and produce military engines of remarkable quality for a relatively moderate price.
China will not have the advantage of a large civilian engine market until, perhaps, in the far future. Except if they are to find and develop a new engine configuration that results in much lighter and/or fuel efficient engines before anyone else. But the others are looking for such engines too.