Chinese Engine Development

latenlazy said:

I doubt it was a simple tourist visit too, but visiting factories make little sense if you just want to purchase some engines. Studying manufacturing methods, facilities, and machinery on the other hand...

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You cannot learn manufacturing methods in one day , and you don't send top brass to do that . Instead , you would send group of experts who would have to stay in Russia for many months .

But if you plan to purchase something from factory , you could go there for one-day visit , check products , listen to presentations , discuss preliminary terms e.t.c. Common business practice

thunderchief said:

You cannot learn manufacturing methods in one day , and you don't send top brass to do that . Instead , you would send group of experts who would have to stay in Russia for many months .

But if you plan to purchase something from factory , you could go there for one-day visit , check products , listen to presentations , discuss preliminary terms e.t.c. Common business practice

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But you can establish a business interest and begin setting an agreement for doing so with a visit.

TyroneG said:

Bad News, Every one thought J20 would be totally weaned from Russian Engine once and for all, a total break. But China is inching back to Russian source.

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I fail to see how China pouring a huge amount of resources into domestic engine programme can be seen as inching back to Russian source. Moreover, nothing that Russia is willing to sell is sufficient for use on J-20. There isn't a Russian source to inch back to even if China wants to.

TyroneG said:

Too many excuses. WS15's bar has already lowered(Supercruise is not required initially), yet it still couldn't make it happen.

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Source? None, just as I thought.

Whether an aircraft can supercruise has as much to do with aerodynamics of the aircraft as it has with the engine. For example, the F-135 has more thrust than F-119, yet the F-35 cannot supercruise whereas F-22 can.

TyroneG said:

Even WS15 is finally operational, I bet the next excuse would be lacking in production number therefore J20 would be sourced differently.

What this means is China cannot wean from Russian source, like an Opium Addict

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Once an aircraft is built to install one type of engine, that aircraft will always need that engine. China will always need the Al-31 series until the country get rid of its existing inventories of aircraft. That's simply an engineering constraint. Automatically associating Chinese purchase of Russian equipments to inadequacy of Chinese capabilities is a logical fallacy. Production number is just one of many reasons, rather than excuses, as to why the above association is a fallacy.

Supercruise is also dependent on engine exhaust velocity.

The WS-15 in its current form could probably do with the J-20 right now (though the safety and maintenance people would probably experience mass heart attacks if you tried it tomorrow).

MiG-29 said:

They are two reports, one is from a page that claims a Hong kong based report claims they want Russian engines for J-20...

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So, a second hand rumor got reported by a third source then reported by a forth source. As if that is not bad enough, somewhere in the chain there was a Hong Kong based media, and we know Hong Kong media's knowledge on anything military is practically zero.

MiG-29 said:

the other is official by Salut, it only stresses the Chinese General visited Salut and the Chinese and Russians want to cooperate in aeroengines they do not mention what engines, true, however go to the page of products

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In short, Salut never mentioned anything related to J-20, at all.

MiG-29 said:

and you will find what today saluts makes, that will give you and idea if the first report is just a guess but Salyut currently has the Al-31 M1 and the AI-222-25 and AI-222-28 engines for military applications since the Chinese sent a General you guess is unlikely they want The D-436T1/TP/148 engine is intended for short and medium-haul airliners such as Tu-334, Be-200, An-148 and others. The D-436T1/TP/148 engine is a further modification of the D36 engine with enhanced thrust and improved economy, the rest is up to your imagination

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Right, imagination. Keep in mind that as well. By your imagination, the Russian Air Force must be purchasing JF-17 then, right? It is nothing more than an imagination to treat the visit by Chinese delegation as anything more than just a visit.

latenlazy said:

But you can establish a business interest and begin setting an agreement for doing so with a visit.

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You could , but usually you don't need a delegation on such high level to do so . Also , I doubt that Russians would be willing to give courses in industrial management to Chinese without some kind of compensation (i.e. you buy this , we teach you how to make that )

Engineer said:

Right, imagination. Keep in mind that

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as well. By your imagination, the Russian Air Force must be purchasing JF-17 then, right? It is nothing more than an imagination to treat the visit by Chinese delegation as anything more than just a visit.

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Russians are not buying JF-17 , but you keep forgetting they are still selling engines for that aircraft If Pakistan wants to make more JF-17s , they have to strike a deal with them .

thunderchief said:

You could , but usually you don't need a delegation on such high level to do so . Also , I doubt that Russians would be willing to give courses in industrial management to Chinese without some kind of compensation (i.e. you buy this , we teach you how to make that )

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You don't need a delegation on such a high level to look at products either. Anyways, better to wait for more reliable reporting.

Engineer said:

I fail to see how China pouring a huge amount of resources into domestic engine programme can be seen as inching back to Russian source. Moreover, nothing that Russia is willing to sell is sufficient for use on J-20. There isn't a Russian source to inch back to even if China wants to.


Source? None, just as I thought.

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I don't have any source, and it's my hunch and would put my money into that when it's all said and done, J20 will be operational with some sort of AL31 Family engines, underpowered or not really unfitting as it may seem.

This is based on Chinese track record, characteristic tendency(finding the simplest way out, path of least resistance)..etc.

TyroneG said:

I don't have any source, and it's my hunch and would put my money into that when it's all said and done, J20 will be operational with some sort of AL31 Family engines, underpowered or not really unfitting as it may seem.

This is based on Chinese track record, characteristic tendency(finding the simplest way out, path of least resistance)..etc.

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Sorry... have to disagree with you here.

Finding the simplest way out is just to purchase entire fighter systems from another nation... and forgo all R&D, since the other nation (eg. Russia) is willing to sell almost any weapons to China (other than nuclear and ballistic missiles). So your basis of Chinese track record is basically wrong.

Secondly, there really is no shame or anything in purchasing a subsystem from another country especially when the subsystem is tested. However the Chinese did put in quite an effort in their own R&D into the engine department resulting in the WS-10A and this engines no matter how much people looked down on is already on quite a number of fighters (J-11A and J-11B) of China.

And if China really wanted to buy the AF-31 or whatever family of engines for their J-20 (note that the news are not confirmed yet) might be because they are in a rush to get the J-20 out and running due to whatever reasons... and the WS-15 is not ready yet, but that does not mean the engine is a failure and will not be out in the future.

TyroneG said:

I don't have any source, and it's my hunch and would put my money into that when it's all said and done, J20 will be operational with some sort of AL31 Family engines, underpowered or not really unfitting as it may seem.

This is based on Chinese track record, characteristic tendency(finding the simplest way out, path of least resistance)..etc.

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I think what's so unusual about your points is that the projected completion of the ws-15 was always set much later, past 2015. There were never any real expectations that it would be earlier than this, even after the J-20 surprised us with an earlier than anticipated reveal. To suggest that because the ws-15 isn't ready yet it must be behind schedule, when the engine was always anticipated to be ready much later, seems to many people a distorted interpretation of the facts*.