Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
That's the B-1B's engines.
Hyperwarp
Captain
Unlikely.
thunderchief
Senior Member
First , you need to understand what temperature is . At atomic level is just a measurement of kinetic energy . For ideal gas Ek=0.5kT , where k is Boltzmann constant :
There a 3 ways to conduct heat : radiation (which interest us most ) , convection and conduction . Other two require physical contact , because they relay on collision between atoms or molecules .
Radiation is transformation of kinetic energy of atoms to EM energy (i.e. photons) . Conductive metals DO emit at different frequencies : simple example is iron - when heated it will go from infrared (invisible ) trough dull red , bright red and then yellow , almost white . That is because they have electrons at different energy levels (they are conductors after all ) .
Semi-conductors and insulators usually cannot emit at different wavelengths because their electrons are "locked" at certain energy levels . Part of the energy remains inside of the material until collapses and moves to gaseous form .
This is partially true but irrelevant for discussion . Atoms and molecules of gas don"t have free electrons like conductors . Their electrons are locked at certain energy levels , so they can emit at locked frequencies (i.e. colors) . But , metals in engines are not in gaseous form , they are not even in liquid form (for obvious reasons
) Burning of aircraft fuel doesn't have anything to do with metal . Instead it is simply oxidation of fuel as you said before , breaking of bonds between atoms in molecule . Color of flame will depend how strong those bonds are . In order to break bonds between fuel A you will need lets say 1000K , and for fuel B you will need 2000 K . Wavelength of photons will therefore depend mostly on chemical composition of the fuel-air mixture . More fuel you add ( higher A/B setting ) higher temperature you will need - and your flame color will move towards blue , as we can see from all those examples .
SamuraiBlue
Captain
Here is the mistake within your logic, there are various trace material in most items which will give off their specific emission spectrum.
Optimum fuel burn of hydrocarbon is blue not really have anything to do with wavelength.
I believe you are talking about .
vesicles
Colonel
We are talking apple vs. orange here. What you are talking about is electrons physically moving from one atom to another in a solid body, i.e. black body radiation. This is called thermionic emission.a good example of that would be heating a metal wire in the vacuum. The metal give off heat and light. This occurs at any temperature and is a function of temperature, as claimed by Richardson's law, which describes the emission intensity is a function of temperature and depends on the Boltzmann constant. As temperature increases, not only intensity is changed, the emitting spectrum is also shifted, hence giving out different color. This is what you see when you heat a metal during metallurgy. The metal block changes color as you increase the temperature, hence the term white-hot.
What I have been talking about is COMPLETELY, let me say that one more time, COMPLETELY different. Instead of conducting (as you described in your post), which allows electrons to move between atoms (conducting), the valence electrons in a metal atom stays in it place in my example. When heating a gaseous metal, atoms are separated into individual components. the valence electrons get excited when absorbing energy to an excited state. As it relaxes back to its ground state, it emits energy at the same wavelength. This happens because the electron(s) located in the outermost orbital of an atom spins along its axis and the spinning exists in two slightly different energy states: the low-energy ground state and the high-energy excited state. The single valence electron in different atoms (say sodium vs, potassium) transition between these energy states at their own distinct wavelength. When excited, these electrons want to go back down to their ground state. They can do that by directly emitting energy at the same wavelength, at which they absorb. This would be the visible light we see. If the electrons choose to transition to other less energetic excited states and then go back down to the ground state, the emitting energy is much weaker, hence fluorescence and/or luminescence. This kind of energy emission is INDEPENDENT of temperature and is only a function of the absorption wavelength, which is completely independent of temperature. This is called atomic spectroscopy and is an inherent property of a substance. EVERY substance has its own distinct absorption/emission wavelength. And this absorption/emission wavelength is completely independent of environmental factors. No matter how hot, how wet or how dense, they WILL absorb and emit at the exact same wavelength. Intensity, however, can be influence by many environmental factors.
So please allow me to emphasize one more time. What you think about is electron movement, conducting. What I talk about is electron spinning and rotating along its own axis, creating its own magnetic fields unpaired or parallel to each other, hence yielding different energy states within the same atom.
Again, what you talk about is conducting electron, totally different thing.
And can you give me something that does not have metals in it? I know even the tab water in my house has many kinds of metals...
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We are witnessing China's going gangbuster over Naval Surface ship buildup, cranking out 054A, 052C/D out like hotcakes, totally surpassed Russia, which still used the old school Slava class cruisers in its navy.
but same thing cannot be said about the AirForces.
Anyone feel the initial excitement of J20, J31, J15 , H6K, J10B and Y20 are waning all because of lack of progress domestic jet engines. The story is getting old. All kinds of new Bodies with foreign outdated engines.We can only gauge of what's actually on the field not some theoretical high level talks, like what they have in the pipeline in the future.
It's catch 20 situation, right now there still lack of trust and comfort level for WS10A/B, it's still used very sparingly.
They should put that engine into the UAV, since no pilot involved they can boldly and widely used on UAV. Only through extensive usage then the part would become mature.
It's more than just a WS10A series.
To be honest, at this point China hasn't even catch up to Soviet in the 80s in this area where Soviet already had a lot of flankers, backfires , blackjack all with domestic power plants.
Actually, in this engine field, China has failed horribly. It opened up in the early 80s and till now, more than 30 yrs passed and still hasn't catch up to Soviet level in the 80s.
but same thing cannot be said about the AirForces.
Anyone feel the initial excitement of J20, J31, J15 , H6K, J10B and Y20 are waning all because of lack of progress domestic jet engines. The story is getting old. All kinds of new Bodies with foreign outdated engines.We can only gauge of what's actually on the field not some theoretical high level talks, like what they have in the pipeline in the future.
It's catch 20 situation, right now there still lack of trust and comfort level for WS10A/B, it's still used very sparingly.
They should put that engine into the UAV, since no pilot involved they can boldly and widely used on UAV. Only through extensive usage then the part would become mature.
It's more than just a WS10A series.
To be honest, at this point China hasn't even catch up to Soviet in the 80s in this area where Soviet already had a lot of flankers, backfires , blackjack all with domestic power plants.
Actually, in this engine field, China has failed horribly. It opened up in the early 80s and till now, more than 30 yrs passed and still hasn't catch up to Soviet level in the 80s.
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Define sparingly.
How many total third generation plane they have, and how many of them used WS10A/B. If the ratio is less than 10% then it's qualified to be described as used sparingly.
One consequence or implication of that is lacking of confidence on it. All new test planes will never use them.
The fact we're not seeing more excitement regarding aircraft production is due to a lack of x ray vision cameras. Most aircraft production is done in buildings, fyi, rather than exposed shipyards.
If we only saw occasional peeks of PLAN ships undergoing sea trials there would naturally be less excitement
WS-10As are all used onboard new production J-11Bs/BS and also the J-16 prototypes.
There's some 120-150ish J-11Bs/BS produced with WS-10(A) since the late 2000s, so it's not exactly used sparingly.
The fact that they're not used onboard J-10B's (at least first batch) could be a few reasons apart from "lack of trust", A: shenyang liming can't produce enough, B: they are using newer Al-31 variants with better thrust than what WS-10A/B can provide at the moment, and there's nothing wrong with that.