Chinese Engine Development

thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
latenlazy said:
Uhhh...No. I wouldn't count 120 J-11Bs flying around with the WS-10 as "testing phase."

Another factor I forgot to mention is that the colour of the flame will change as it travels through the nozzle, cools, and the flame gets a more even mix with air. The blue colour of the AL-31 is only at present where the igniter is.
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Number of J-11s with WS-10 is a matter of speculation , but fact is that WS-10 was and still is to some degree new and untested engine (operationally speaking) . In such circumstances it is not uncommon for pilots to "baby" their engine . Well known example was F-14A and its Pratt & Whitney TF30 engine - Tomcat pilots avoided abrupt changes of throttle and full A/B .
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
thunderchief said:
Number of J-11s with WS-10 is a matter of speculation , but fact is that WS-10 was and still is to some degree new and untested engine (operationally speaking) . In such circumstances it is not uncommon for pilots to "baby" their engine . Well known example was F-14A and its Pratt & Whitney TF30 engine - Tomcat pilots avoided abrupt changes of throttle and full A/B .
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No...it isn't. They've actually counted the regiments with WS-10 equipped J-11Bs. Not sure what the PLAAF's practices are with new engines, but it's been operating for over two years now. Anyways, if you want proof of the count dig through the flanker thread.
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
vesicles said:
I was responding to No Name's comment on flame color characterization based on chemistry. So theoretically speaking, unless we KNOW for sure they use the same fuel, we don't know the different color is caused by temperature differences or different composition of fuels.

As a matter of fact, it makes more sense to think that the fuels are different. Why? Well, people have been saying that AL-31 engines have been consistently seen as burning with a different color than WS-10. If we assume the color yellow and color blue in the afterburner is caused by temperature difference, that means the two engines are burning consistently at different temperatures that are hundreds if not thousands of degrees apart (yellow flame is close to 1200 oF while blue is close to 3000 oF). That makes no sense at all. Although the two engines are different in power, the difference cannot be that big.

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Thus, the only logical explanation is that they burn different fuel.
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The temperature of the afterburner flame is probably highly dependent on the amount of after burning, as well as the bypass ratio of the engine. The amount of the afterburning determines how much additional heat and energy is put into the exhaust stream of the engine core. The bypass ratio determines how much additional cool air is fed into the exhaust stream of the engine.

If one engine is blasting at full afterburning, while intrinsically have a smaller bypass ration, then it would put a lot of heat into core exhaust without cooling it much with bypass air. It will probably show a hot blue plume. If one engine just engaged the after burner, while intrinsically have a higher bypass ration, then it would be putting much less heat into the core exhust while cooling the whole thing with more bypass air. Such an engine would show a cooler yellow plume.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
chuck731 said:
The temperature of the afterburner flame is probably highly dependent on the amount of after burning, as well as the bypass ratio of the engine. The amount of the afterburning determines how much additional heat and energy is put into the exhaust stream of the engine core. The bypass ratio determines how much additional cool air is fed into the exhaust stream of the engine.

If one engine is blasting at full afterburning, while intrinsically have a smaller bypass ration, then it would put a lot of heat into core exhaust without cooling it much with bypass air. It will probably show a hot blue plume. If one engine just engaged the after burner, while intrinsically have a higher bypass ration, then it would be putting much less heat into the core exhust while cooling the whole thing with more bypass air. Such an engine would show a cooler yellow plume.
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Colour is not necessarily indicative of temperature though. There are other factors to it. For example, if you don't get a clean burn because the reheated air is getting blasted too forcefully you'll get some soot mixed in, which makes the flamer yellower/redder.
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
thunderchief said:
Number of J-11s with WS-10 is a matter of speculation , but fact is that WS-10 was and still is to some degree new and untested engine (operationally speaking) . In such circumstances it is not uncommon for pilots to "baby" their engine . Well known example was F-14A and its Pratt & Whitney TF30 engine - Tomcat pilots avoided abrupt changes of throttle and full A/B .
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TF-30 was a first generation turbofan engine, originally not even meant to have an afterburner, and was not designed for fighters use at all. I think a modern after-burning turbofan engine designed for fighter use ought to do much better and reach its full potential much more quickly and with less trouble.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
thunderchief said:
Number of J-11s with WS-10 is a matter of speculation , but fact is that WS-10 was and still is to some degree new and untested engine (operationally speaking) . In such circumstances it is not uncommon for pilots to "baby" their engine . Well known example was F-14A and its Pratt & Whitney TF30 engine - Tomcat pilots avoided abrupt changes of throttle and full A/B .
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Yeah... Nah....

SAC have been producing WS-10 equipped j-11B/BS since at least 2009 at a rate of about 24 per year, and the engine had years of testing before that.
So it is neither new or untested, operationally speaking.

And that is certainly a funny excuse for why WS-10 "cant light up afterburners" (certainly the first time I heard such a claim), because they wouldn't have entered service if so, would they?
 
thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
latenlazy said:
No...it isn't. They've actually counted the regiments with WS-10 equipped J-11Bs. Not sure what the PLAAF's practices are with new engines, but it's been operating for over two years now. Anyways, if you want proof of the count dig through the flanker thread.
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Bltizo said:
Yeah... Nah....

SAC have been producing WS-10 equipped j-11B/BS since at least 2009 at a rate of about 24 per year, and the engine had years of testing before that.
So it is neither new or untested, operationally speaking.

And that is certainly a funny excuse for why WS-10 "cant light up afterburners" (certainly the first time I heard such a claim), because they wouldn't have entered service if so, would they?
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Not going to go further with speculations about numbers of J-11 and years of WS-10 testing . Also , there could be numerous reasons why pilots don't want to slam full A/B .

It is sufficient to say - we need pictures and/or video of WS-10 on full afterburner . When we get that we could speculate about differences in color , although I'm willing to bet there won't be many .

In this picture , bluish afterburner color of F/A-18 (totally unrelated to AL-31 yet same color )

FA-18-Afterburners.jpg
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Long exposure pictures are unreliable because we can't actually see the afterburner flame, just the shock diamond, which almost always has some purple hue.

Best picture of a ws-10 with afterburner I've found so far, but it's a pretty old one.

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Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
thunderchief said:
Not going to go further with speculations about numbers of J-11 and years of WS-10 testing . Also , there could be numerous reasons why pilots don't want to slam full A/B .

It is sufficient to say - we need pictures and/or video of WS-10 on full afterburner . When we get that we could speculate about differences in color , although I'm willing to bet there won't be many .

In this picture , bluish afterburner color of F/A-18 (totally unrelated to AL-31 yet same color )

FA-18-Afterburners.jpg
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It's best to compare pictures with the same lighting condition, whether it's bright or gloomy daylight, evening light, night time etc. And that's not even counting how the photos are exposed and the possible different camera settings. You would be hard pressed to find a picture of the F1xx type of engines in blue afterburner, in full daylight that is.


Edit: In this footage, you can compare 3 different engine types in the same weather and lighting condition.

[video=youtube;Wxtm2wVwLnA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxtm2wVwLnA[/video]
 
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Franklin

Captain
We know that the WS-10 engine has been in production and use since 2010. That is about 3 years ago and there are 120 J-11B's flying with them. That means that there are 240 engines in permanent use as we speak, not knowing how many has been produced in total. But its clear that the engine is in production and use and that whatever problems that the engine faces or is still facing will hopefully be ironed out in the near future.

But does anyone know anything about the status of the WS-13 ? That engine is supposed to have its first run in 2006 and in 2012 it was reported that there was a JF-17 prototype flying with it. So what happen to it, does anyone here know when that engine might go into production ? Its a much less powerful and there for most likely less sophisticated engine than the WS-10 and yet the engine seems to have disappeared into a black hole when it comes to its progress.
 
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