Chinese Engine Development

vesicles

Colonel
Not going to go further with speculations about numbers of J-11 and years of WS-10 testing . Also , there could be numerous reasons why pilots don't want to slam full A/B .

It is sufficient to say - we need pictures and/or video of WS-10 on full afterburner . When we get that we could speculate about differences in color , although I'm willing to bet there won't be many .

In this picture , bluish afterburner color of F/A-18 (totally unrelated to AL-31 yet same color )

FA-18-Afterburners.jpg

Actually, this would be a good evidence for my suggestion that the AB color is not a sign of different performance of engines. Difference in fuel could be one explanation among thousand others.
 

Zahid

Junior Member
But does anyone know anything about the status of the WS-13 ? That engine is supposed to have its first run in 2006 and in 2012 it was reported that there was a JF-17 prototype flying with it. So what happen to it, does anyone here know when that engine might go into production ? Its a much less powerful and there for most likely less sophisticated engine than the WS-10 and yet the engine seems to have disappeared into a black hole when it comes to its progress.

My sentiments exactly. I keep opening this thread to find something about WS-13, instead I find constant bickering about WS-10 numbers, reliability, etc...

We in Pakistan eagerly look for information about WS-13, but the last bit that I ever came across a couple of years ago was that JF-17 / FC-1 has conducted Runway taxi trials with it. Beyond that there is no information on any of the forums that I visit.

Does anyone have any information that can be shared without any security or disclosure issues? Anything about thrust, reliability, service life, or any comparison with Russian RD-93 that JF-17 currently uses?
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
It's best to compare pictures with the same lighting condition, whether it's bright or gloomy daylight, evening light, night time etc. And that's not even counting how the photos are exposed and the possible different camera settings. You would be hard pressed to find a picture of the F1xx type of engines in blue afterburner, in full daylight that is.

Comparing color of light sources (in this case engines) is more accurate without interference of ambient light from other sources (in this case daylight) . I agree about camera settings .

Edit: In this footage, you can compare 3 different engine types in the same weather and lighting condition.

I know what you want to say : AL-31 is blue , WS-10 and RD-93(33) are orange :D But , it is not that simple . RD-93 has less power then AL-31 (and therefore lower temperature of exhaust ) .Yet , you can see at clip below that at full A/B (0:19-0:20) color of exhaust becomes almost white . As for WS-10 , it should have more power then AL-31 . Therefore I want to see what it could do at full throttle and I suspect they didn't go for that in your clip (J-10B had only light load so it was not necessary ) .

[video=youtube;ece0Xy6gvpU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ece0Xy6gvpU[/video]

Actually, this would be a good evidence for my suggestion that the AB color is not a sign of different performance of engines. Difference in fuel could be one explanation among thousand others.

Well , color of EM radiation is primarily function of temperature . Of course , there are numerous other factors like scattering of light , interference etc ... But , higher the temperature of radiating body (in this case engine exhaust ) radiated EM waves move to shorter wavelengths (i.e. towards blue and violet) . Different chemical composition means that some substances simply burn at different temperatures .

Black_body_visible_spectrum.gif


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latenlazy

Brigadier
Comparing color of light sources (in this case engines) is more accurate without interference of ambient light from other sources (in this case daylight) . I agree about camera settings .



I know what you want to say : AL-31 is blue , WS-10 and RD-93(33) are orange :D But , it is not that simple . RD-93 has less power then AL-31 (and therefore lower temperature of exhaust ) .Yet , you can see at clip below that at full A/B (0:19-0:20) color of exhaust becomes almost white . As for WS-10 , it should have more power then AL-31 . Therefore I want to see what it could do at full throttle and I suspect they didn't go for that in your clip (J-10B had only light load so it was not necessary ) .

[video=youtube;ece0Xy6gvpU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ece0Xy6gvpU[/video]



Well , color of EM radiation is primarily function of temperature . Of course , there are numerous other factors like scattering of light , interference etc ... But , higher the temperature of radiating body (in this case engine exhaust ) radiated EM waves move to shorter wavelengths (i.e. towards blue and violet) . Different chemical composition means that some substances simply burn at different temperatures .

Black_body_visible_spectrum.gif


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Not exactly. You first have to look at the emission bands of the matter being discussed, which is related to that matter's composition. As energy input increases that matter emits higher energy radiation, but only at wavelengths specific to that matter's composition (these bands are determined by the energy states of the electrons absorbing and re-emitting EMR, and their orbitals). So yes, as temperature goes up you will get emissions at shorter wavelengths, but only at bands specific to the composition of the matter. The overall colour we see is a combination of those specific emissions. Depending on the composition of the matter, you could have a flame with emissions at shorter wavelengths but be at lower temperatures than a flame at longer wavelengths. For example, forest fires are orange, and ethanol burns blue, but forest fires are going to be far FAR hotter than ethanol flames.

The forest fire example brings up another point, which is that heat is ultimately determined by the amount of net energy being released by the net chemical reaction. Depending on the intermediate reactants within that reaction, you could have a flame that's very hot because the net amount of heat being released is high, but emit longer wavelengths, because the energy released by the intermediate reactants aren't enough to push their emissions to higher bands. In that sense, you can't simply use two flames of different colours and say for sure that the one emitting shorter wavelengths is hotter than the one emitting longer wavelengths. You're going to get more heat energy from something that emits more waves of infrared than fewer waves of a shorter wavelength.

This brings in ANOTHER factor, which is that visible light is a very narrow band of the EM spectrum, and far more radiation (and energy) is released at different bands. Based on the emission bands of a particular substance, it's entirely possible for it to burn at a longer wavelength in visible light but have an emission at the next energy state that is at a wavelength shorter than visible light, so that even when super hot what we see is a colour at a lower wavelength simply because we can't see the higher energy emissions!

Note, you don't need to be using fuel with different compositions to get reaction mass with different colours. This is a point I've been trying to hammer in for a while now, but the specific discussions of emissions gives another angle to explain it. If you stick the same fuel into two different engines, you'll probably end up getting two (sometimes only slightly) different colours because the two engines will just operate differently. Depending on how each operate they may create different proportions of different chemical products, as determined by things such as the fuel-air mix at different stages of compression, etc etc, which then means different composition of emissions, which then affect the colour.

The smart cookies reading the previous paragraph will realize that there's yet another potential factor that could determine the composition of the afterburner flame and therefore the composition of its emissions, which is the composition of the air reacting with the fuel. This is another added factor that must be accounted for, though usually a small one.

With regards to the attached video of the Mig-29, you'll notice that there is still an orange glow despite the white afterburner flame. The whiteness in the film may not be the actual colour of the flame, but the camera sensor/film being saturated by the amount of light it is capturing. This is particularly likely if the film is set at a high ISO, which increases sensitivity of the film/sensor to light. Personally, that's what I think is going on here, because I'm looking at pictures of the Mig-29 on afterburner and it's always a consistent orange colour.

Finally to put the nail in the coffin on the correlation between afterburner colour, temperature, and thrust, neither the F-35 nor F-22 have blue afterburner flames. Both are very clearly orange. In the F-22's case, the bypass ratio is also very low. Now it's possible that the F-22's afterburners are burning at a lower temperatures than an AL-31's while still generating a higher amount of thrust (at a higher instantaneous velocity), but the main point is that making a conjecture about the relationship between colour, temperature, and thrust, is an exercise in futility.

I hope my roundabout way of trying to explain why this discussion is silly was at least entertaining, if not educational.

EDIT: If you browse around for pictures of the F119's afterburners, you'll note the test pictures seem to indicate a blue flame, while pictures of the F-22 indicate an orange-purple flame. I'm not exactly sure exactly why this is, but my guesses are that the difference is either a result of the lighting (closed environment/night time) or a result of air density.
 
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thunderchief

Senior Member
For example, forest fires are orange, and ethanol burns blue, but forest fires are going to be far FAR hotter than ethanol flames.

Where did you get that ? Wood starts to burn at 450 C . As for ethanol , it is over 2000 C :
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Forest fires release more energy , that is true , but at lower energy density and lower temperature - therefore flame is orange .

Depending on the intermediate reactants within that reaction, you could have a flame that's very hot because the net amount of heat being released is high, but emit longer wavelengths, because the energt released by the intermediate reactants aren't enough to push their emissions to higher bands.

Well no . For example , you cannot use wood to melt steel (no matter how much you have) , you need coal . Reason is that wood burns at certain (relatively low) temperature , its energy is released and it is gone . Coal needs higher temperature (higher energy of photons) to start releasing energy and so its flame color is different .


With regards to the attached video of the Mig-29, you'll notice that there is still an orange glow despite the white afterburner flame. The whiteness in the film may not be the actual colour of the flame, but the camera sensor/film being saturated by the amount of light it is capturing. This is particularly likely if the film is set at a high ISO, which increases sensitivity of the film/sensor to light. Personally, that's what I think is going on here, because I'm looking at pictures of the Mig-29 on afterburner and it's always a consistent orange colour.

There is orange glow at cooler parts of the jet stream (at the edges ) . In the middle it is white . I don't think this has anything to do with saturation .


Finally to put the nail in the coffin on the correlation between afterburner colour, temperature, and thrust, neither the F-35 nor F-22 have blue afterburner flames.

Wrong ! At full A/B F-22 has blue flame . Only you would rarely see F-22 engaging full A/B , except in tests like this (2:10) :

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latenlazy

Brigadier
Where did you get that ? Wood starts to burn at 450 C . As for ethanol , it is over 2000 C :
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In an apples to apples comparison, the adiabatic flame temperature of wood is 1980 C. I did mistake temperature of combustion with flame temperature, and came up with a rather faulty example as a result (EDIT: I take it back, I remembered correctly and ethanol DOES self ignite at a lower temperature than wood, 365 C for ethanol, though that still has nothing to do with flame temperature :D).

I've heard some forests can burn much hotter than a normal wood fire due to various conditions, but it was a poor analogy because I didn't account for conditions and forest fires have far more variables than a simple ethanol flame. Either way, I'm not sure adiabatic flame temperature really applies to afterburner flame colour, since we're not talking theoretical lab conditions, and since actual flame temperature always varies with things such as the amount of available oxygen and air pressure, which then determines the reaction pathways.

Well no . For example , you cannot use wood to melt steel (no matter how much you have) , you need coal . Reason is that wood burns at certain (relatively low) temperature , its energy is released and it is gone . Coal needs higher temperature (higher energy of photons) to start releasing energy and so its flame color is different .
The main point was that you can have a hotter flame that has the color of a longer wavelength.

There is orange glow at cooler parts of the jet stream (at the edges ) . In the middle it is white . I don't think this has anything to do with saturation .

EDIT: So I searched around a bit for some other full afterburner pictures of other planes, and you MAY have a point about the intensity of the flame at the core (always hard to tell because we just don't know the exposure and ISO of a picture)...BUT it seems to me that the F-15's afterburners glow more orange than the Su-27s, which doesn't convince me that the colour has at all to do with thrust. I think it's worth noting that these things are best decided with observations in person because the role the camera plays in these sorts of things. I myself have never seen a plane go at full afterburner live, so I'll leave it those who've actually had this experience.

Wrong ! At full A/B F-22 has blue flame . Only you would rarely see F-22 engaging full A/B , except in tests like this (2:10) :

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Unless you can pull up an F-22 on full afterburner in flight, I'm not convinced that the flame colour isn't just a result of indoor conditions and altitude.
 
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Quickie

Colonel
Comparing color of light sources (in this case engines) is more accurate without interference of ambient light from other sources (in this case daylight) . I agree about camera settings .



I know what you want to say : AL-31 is blue , WS-10 and RD-93(33) are orange :D But , it is not that simple . RD-93 has less power then AL-31 (and therefore lower temperature of exhaust ) .Yet , you can see at clip below that at full A/B (0:19-0:20) color of exhaust becomes almost white . As for WS-10 , it should have more power then AL-31 . Therefore I want to see what it could do at full throttle and I suspect they didn't go for that in your clip (J-10B had only light load so it was not necessary ) .

It isn't about the interference of ambient light. It's about how ambient light affect the exposure/aperture settings of the camera. And the colour of the AB won't vary that much going all the way to full throttle. What you're seeing in the Mig-29 video is overexposure in poor daylight possibly during late afternoon/evening.


Wrong ! At full A/B F-22 has blue flame . Only you would rarely see F-22 engaging full A/B , except in tests like this (2:10) :
LiveLeak.com - F-22 Afterburner Test

That's indoor lighting! Anything as bright as a jet engine AB will be overexposed and look bluish in such dim light as indoor lightings.
 
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SamuraiBlue

Captain
The reason why wood burns at a relatively low temperature compared to coal is the water content within the wood which absorbs the heat to evaporate lowering the overall temperature.
With fuel exhaust the temperature is higher when compression ratio is higher. Blue flame does not automatically equate to higher temperature since there is emission spectrum of trace material within the fuel that could give out a different wave length emission.(ex. various coloration of fireworks)
 

vesicles

Colonel
Well , color of EM radiation is primarily function of temperature . Of course , there are numerous other factors like scattering of light , interference etc ... But , higher the temperature of radiating body (in this case engine exhaust ) radiated EM waves move to shorter wavelengths (i.e. towards blue and violet) . Different chemical composition means that some substances simply burn at different temperatures .

Black_body_visible_spectrum.gif


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NO!!! Ignition temperature and emission wavelength are two completely different concepts. Burning temperature changes intensity (how bright) while emission wavelength changes color. The same metal atom can be at different temperatures and give out the same flame. For instance, sodium metal can spontaneously ignite at room temperature and give out yellow flame. sodium ions in the form of NaCl in a flame of any temp still give out yellow flame. Two vastly different temperatures, the same old yellow flame.

Metal atoms have different colored flames because they absorb energy at a certain wavelength when its valence electron is excited to an excited state. When coming back down to the ground state, the atom emits energy at the same wavelength, at which it absorbs. This has nothing to do with how hot the flame it. In the case of sodium, its absorption/emission wavelength is 589nm, hence the yellow color. It has nothing to do with temperature. The high temperature is only needed to turn metal into gaseous atoms, which makes excitation/emission easier. What this means is that there is a threshold temperature, at which a metal is turned into its gaseous form. This, of course, depends on its phase transition temperature. Once that temperature is reached, metal atoms will begin absorb and emit. This process is completely independent of temperature. In the case of sodium again, its gaseous phase transition is at ~1200K. This means that as long as this temperature is achieved, sodium atoms will begin absorbing and emitting light at 589nm, yellow flame. you can keep increasing the temperature to 12000K, as long as there is still sodium in the flame, it will give out yellow.

The temperature of the flame changes intensity, however. The hotter the flame (by adding fuel/oxygen, etc) will turn more metal into gaseous atoms and increase intensity, thus brighter. It will not change the color.

I think you mistaken the concept of "burning" and the concept of energy absorption/emission. Note that I keep mentioning metal atom and do not even touch other main constituents in a fuel. Things like methane and propane actually burn, meaning that they get oxidized at high temperature when in contact with oxygen. It is a complete chemical reaction, meaning that methane will no longer be methane after the burning. It becomes CO2 and H2O. That is burning, a chemical reaction that completely changes the substance. Metal atoms giving out different colored flames is NOT the same at all. It does not go through the same irreversible chemical reaction. Unlike methane burning (you simply cannot turn CO2 and H2O back to methane when you lower the temperature back down), metal atoms absorb energy, go to an excited state, then emit energy at the same wavelength and come back down to its ground state. The same process can go on and on forever. It is a physical process. Let's get back to the example of Na spontaneous combustion with H2O vs. NaCl flame. In the first case, Na actually "burns" with H2O because it reacts with H2O and yields NaOH and H2. Because of the hydrogen gas, the flame is much hotter. In the latter case, NaCl never burns and simpky boils into gas. Both give yellow flames because in both cases, Na ions in the flame is turned into sodium atom and begin to absorb and emit at 589nm. So both give yellow flame, not because of the burning temperature.

Thus, the process of burning is a function of temperature, which depends on level of oxygen among other things. A more efficient burning will increase the temperature and change the flame color. This is what you have been fixed upon. Metal atoms absorbing/emitting energy is independent of temperature as long as it passes the gaseous phase transition. Even when it's below the gaseous phase transition temp, some amount of metal cans till turn into gas and start absorb/emitting at their distinct wavelength. In the case of sodium, the flame containing sodium will stay yellow below sodium's boiling point, at its boiling point and above its boiling point. The intensity of the yellow color is, however, a function of the temperature. as it gets hotter, more sodium atom becomes gas and more sodium atoms absorb/emit at 589nm and give out yellow color, thus brighter yellow. This is in fact the basic concept behind the invention of flame ionization detector (FID), one of the most significant advancement in analytical chemistry in 1970's. The whole concept is based on the fact that metal absorption/emission is a distinct material property of the metal and is completely independent of its environment. The way to do that is to inject test solution containing metal ions into a super hot flame to ensure complete gaseous transformation. then the color of the flame is ONLY dependent on the type of the metal ions (distinguished by the emission wavelength, i.e. flame color) and level of the metal ions (intensity of the emission).

Additionally, my point is that the overall color of the AB flame can have two variables: efficiency of combustion and composition of the fuel. Can you distinguish one from another simply by looking at the color the flame?
 
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