Like I said, all new J-11Bs since late 2000s have used WS-10As (120-150 planes, 240-300 engines), J-16 prototype used WS-10As.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
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Like I said, all new J-11Bs since late 2000s have used WS-10As (120-150 planes, 240-300 engines), J-16 prototype used WS-10As.
You have sources on that? 130 planes, that's highly optimistic.
so, base on what your said, can we expect nOt to see any AL-31 powered J15 production planes.
If deino or franco-russe were here, they could give you the accurate orbat, I'm just quoting what I remember from people who have done the number watching.
It may be optimistic compared to the knowledge you've been living under. Let's just pretend there are 130 J-11Bs/BSs equipped in PLA with WS-10As. Would that drastically change your perception of the engine situation?
I expect the first batch of J-15s will be Al-31, because of PLAN conservativeness. This isn't because WS-10A is necessarily unreliable (and it isn't unreliable, otherwise we wouldn't see J-11Bs mass equipped with it and J-16 prototype flying with it), but rather because PLAN knows the aircraft carrier is a high profile project and want to mitigate every risk for every millimeter they can earn. And that means using Al-31s over WS-10As, because Al-31s simply have been in use longer.
I expect later J-15s to use WS-10As once PLAN get over their nerves.
I still think China hasn't achieve Soviet level in the 80s, but if indeed hundreds(big difference) instead of only 20s to 40s of J11B having WS10A then there still hopes for big improvement.
thunderchief
Senior Member
I'm talking about metal in crystal form , like you have in aircraft engine . I'm talking about this:
You are talking about metal atoms in gaseous form , floating freely . Of course in this case valence electrons would be locked at certain energy levels , and you would have discrete radiation spectrum . Only problem , you don't have many free atoms either in engine or in fuel to significantly alter color of the flame
Aircraft fuel ( ) does not contain large quantity of metals . It is a complex mixture of hydrocarbons and air . Color of the flame would depend on composition of the mixture and on the temperature . As most jet engines develop similar temperatures and use similar fuel , you would see similar colors at various stages of A/B .
SamuraiBlue
Captain
Engine development heavily relies on metallurgy and condensed matter physics in developing heat resistant fine ceramics.
Both science takes time and patience requiring vast amount of data of trial and error to obtain the optimum material. Measurements of ingredient requires precise amount in the micro grams meaning quality control is of the up most importance.
I believe it's these factors combined with the complexity in design of the engine itself that is holding back PRC in developing advance jet engine.
Both science takes time and patience requiring vast amount of data of trial and error to obtain the optimum material. Measurements of ingredient requires precise amount in the micro grams meaning quality control is of the up most importance.
I believe it's these factors combined with the complexity in design of the engine itself that is holding back PRC in developing advance jet engine.
vesicles
Colonel
I'm talking about metal in crystal form , like you have in aircraft engine . I'm talking about this:
You are talking about metal atoms in gaseous form , floating freely . Of course in this case valence electrons would be locked at certain energy levels , and you would have discrete radiation spectrum . Only problem , you don't have many free atoms either in engine or in fuel to significantly alter color of the flame
My goodness, please check how AB works! You have hot flame and fuel sprayed into the hot fire in an AB. Am I correct? This is the EXACT process that generate metal atoms!!! Please google atomic spectroscopy and see how the instrument detects trace metal, which includes metal ions, in fluids. In the flame of an AB, almost all substance is turned into atomic form.
Metal blocks? You might be able to see the color of the metals that make up the engine parts when you look directly at the engine. You 120% certainly will NOT see engine parts when the AB is working, spewing out flames. And we have been talking about FLAME. When was the last time you saw a metal block bursting into flames give out a flame like an AB is doing.
I am not only talking about metals in the form of actual metals in the sense of shiny steel and such. Metal ions in solutions will work the same way. That's why I gave an example of NaCl vs. Na metal. No matter it is sodium metal or sodium ions in the form of NaCl. In a hot flame, they will become sodium atoms and their valence electrons will spin and rotate the same way, thus emitting light at the same wavelength and giving out the same color. And we know with 100% certainty that any fuel contains huge amount of metal ions because fuel is derived from live organisms, which contain huge amount of metal ions. Any living organism needs huge amount of metal ions to function. Each and every organ in our body needs metal ions. Ever wonder why our blood smells like that? It's the smell of iron. The hemoglobin in our blood cells needs to bind with iron ions to be able to bind with oxygen. Without binding with iron ions, hemoglobin cannot change its conformation to open up its binding pockets for oxygen. So no iron, no oxygen, no life. This is just one example. Sodium, potassium, calcium and magnesium are all absolutely essential to life. When animals and plants die, their flesh might be gone, these metal ions cannot leave them. They may get oxidized during millions of years under heat and pressure, but they are still the same elements they started out with. Sodium will NOT be changed to carbon and potassium will be become nitrogen. And although refining process is efficient, it cannot filter out metal ions since these metal ions are soluble in almost any solvent. In a hot flame, they will all go back to their initial atomic form.
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thunderchief
Senior Member
Okay , you gotta be kidding
In order to get metal atoms (in gaseous form) you would need to be above melting and boiling point of said metal (for iron 1535 and 2700 C : ) . Your engine would be completely destroyed . That is way engine designer seek to find materials which could withstand as higher temperatures as possible , not materials that would melt and boil Metal does not not burst in the flame in aircraft engine . Fuel does . Metal may heat up and start glowing , but most of the radiation in A/B comes from fuel burning :
Well , no . Kerosene usually don't have much of the metal components , not even lead like gasoline :
Yes , but percentage of iron in human body is negligible compared to water (H2O) and hydro-carbons . It would not paint the flame of our funeral fire
vesicles
Colonel
Okay , you gotta be kidding
NO! NO! NO! If you want to get a block of metal into gaseous form, then yes. You would have to get the temp up there. You would not need the temp to be that high if you simply spray solutions containing metal ions into hot fire. The flame temp in an typical atomic spectrophotometer is between 400oC and 700oC. When you have a solution sprayed into a hot-burning fire, such temperature range (400-700oC) is enough to turn metal ions into atoms. So, in an AB where fuel is sprayed into a hot fire, the condition is identical to that used in the atomic sepctrophotometers. Thus, high temp is NOT needed.
That is the point I was trying to convey. In your last post, you seem to suggest that the color of the flame in the AB is caused by a block of metal heating up. I was trying to tell you that is not the case.
I honestly don't know what to say at this point... You are still thinking in the term of metal as in a block of steel. No, I am talking about metal IONS as in the term of table salt. I don't know where you got the idea that jet fuel does not contain metal ions. Ions exist in all solutions. You cannot eliminate them.
Please google "Determination of Metal Ions in Crude Oils - InTech". It clearly describes metal ion content in crude oil. It's a PDF file and I don't want to attach it.
As a matter of fact, actual metals do exist in jet fuel: metal deactivators are added to jet fuels to cancel out the deleterious effects of metal in the fuel. If people have to invent a special agent, specifically named "metal deactivators", to jet fuels, then there is enough metal in the fuel to cause serious side effects. Even with metal deactivator additives, metal, such as copper, are not eliminated, but simply chelated. Then in a hot flame, these metal atoms will be turned into atoms as I have painstakingly described.
Please scroll down to the section of "additives".
please google "Fuel Filter for Removal of Copper Contamination from Jet Fuel". There is apparently enough copper metal (note that this is not ions, but actual metal) in jet fuel to cause serious damage.
Please google "Aviation Fuels Technical Review - Business Desk"
Yes , but percentage of iron in human body is negligible compared to water (H2O) and hydro-carbons . It would not paint the flame of our funeral fire
Negligible? Metal ions on the levels of ppm (parts per million) is enough to affect the color of the flame, which is visible to naked eye..
Anything else you can think of???
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thunderchief
Senior Member
I never said that fuel does not contain metal atoms(ions) . I said there are not enough of them to paint flame .
To put in simple terms , lets say metals have 5000 ppm (and that is very optimistic assumption ) in jet fuel . 5000 atoms emit at frequency f1 , but other 995 000 fuel molecules emit at frequency f2 . What do you think which would paint the flame ?
Also , do you really think PLAAF uses fuel with different chemical composition for AL-31 and WS-10 ?