Chinese Engine Development

latenlazy said:

You've spoken about jet engines, but not about Chinese engines

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i did spoke about jet engines and i included Chinese and foreign engines, i spoke about what Victor Chepkin said about WS-10, i posted a Chinese report claiming China is one of the only five countries making jet engines, to which i said is not accurate since IHI makes jet engines since 1984 for T-4 and Japan`s IHI makes engines for the P-X, and Ukraine makes engines for An-124 and even the Chinese L-15


WHat happens is simply you want to accuse me of going stray, like i said, now you claim i am off topic.


I know this style of attacks.

Go back a few pages and you will see i said that.

Otherwise do not slander people.

MiG-29 said:

Quote me saying Mexico is better, i have never said that, the only thing i said, is China has some flaws in the way to get tech transfers.

Probably you do not know, but China like Mexico are top reciepients of aerospace related investment.

I will ask you, do you think for China recieve investment is not important?

Do you think in China they do not want aerospace related investment?

You just have a fixed view sayng to you China can not get jet engine transfers.

They can, they have allies like Russia, and potential partners like the US wanting to do partnerships with China, in fact i do not think in future years GE, P&W or RR will not do partnerships China in jet engine design.



Because simply aircraf design is getting more and more expensive so it means less and less models will fly.
If you read why embraer did not make a bigger aircraft in the class of C919 or MS-21 or MRJ o CS100, is smply because they market they say is not so big, so some losers will come between those programs, so Brazil decided to just re-engine the E-190 family

So the aerospace related chain supply business will boom and of course many nations will follow Mexico or China in that regard.


If you want investment and a share of the market, every nation will be forced to cooperate, they already do it, simple look at B-787 or A-350 or Embraer aircraft.

And even if you do not like it J-10, J-11 or J-31 all these aircraft have parts developed in different parts too

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Yet, just like China with its C919, Russia goes alone with the MS-21 instead of joining force with Airbus or Boeing. As for Airbus and Boeing themselves, they designed the A-350 and 787 as competitors of each other instead of cooperating on one aircraft. The simple reality is that nations aren't cooperating as you claim they should.

kyanges said:

He's said things about investment. That's not a bad topic to cover. The problem is, as usual, Mig-29 hasn't responded to some good counterpoints, meaning the discussion goes in circles.

And as usual, as evidenced in his responses to my posts, he replies with things only barely related to what he's responding to. I just asked if a mod could move the past few pages somewhere else or temporarily lock the thread. In response he accuses me of racism, and then goes on to ask if I have the "authority" to decide, lol.

I guess I'll just go PM a mod directly.

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The discussion goes in circles not because of me, is becuase of lack of civility, i won`t respond to people either attacking me or trying to insult me or drag me into senseless arguments.

And yes i can see what you really try, you are accusing me, which shows you have accuse me from the begining of being off topic


That is the only reason you do it, you are not including your self simply you are trying to attack me is this is off topic get MiG-29 out of this thread as usual.

Politeness means let a moderator do it, you are no one to decide what and goes or judge who can or can not opine.
You simply want to play the moderator type decision

MiG-29 said:

The discussion goes in circles not because of me, is becuase of lack of civility, i won`t respond to people either attacking me or trying to insult me or drag me into senseless arguments.

And yes i can see what you really try, you are accusing me, which shows you have accuse me from the begining of being off topic


That is the only reason you do it, you are not including your self simply you are trying to attack me is this is off topic get MiG-29 out of this thread as usual.

Politeness means let a moderator do it, you are no one to decide what and goes or judge who can or can not opine.
You simply want to play the moderator type decision

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Thanks. I did ask for a moderator to do something. And you said I was being racist.

MiG-29 said:

kyanges said:

Yes, Chinese aerospace planners got the idea to cooperate from Mexico.

Can a mod move the past few pages of this thread to somewhere else?

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Interesting and funny how you want to claim only you should be allowed to post here, this video shows some western and Chinese view about the realities of engine design in China but i guess you want to only post here, exclude me since my view is from a non chinese person so you claim my opinions do not belong here.

probably if i post things like this you would like me to post

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I would much rather read what you think about Engineer's points about these competing projects that he posted above. Those aren't "insulting" or "senseless" arguments.

MiG-29 said:

i did spoke about jet engines and i included Chinese and foreign engines, i spoke about what Victor Chepkin said about WS-10, i posted a Chinese report claiming China is one of the only five countries making jet engines, to which i said is not accurate since IHI makes jet engines since 1984 for T-4 and Japan`s IHI makes engines for the P-X, and Ukraine makes engines for An-124 and even the Chinese L-15


WHat happens is simply you want to accuse me of going stray, like i said, now you claim i am off topic.

I know this style of attacks.

Go back a few pages and you will see i said that.

Otherwise do not slander people.

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And there's the problem. Where the heck did I do that? D:

But FYI. Talking about Mexican jet engines is not talking about Chinese jet engines.

latenlazy said:

And there's the problem. Where the heck did I do that? D:

But FYI. Talking about Mexican jet engines is not talking about Chinese jet engines.

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Talking about Mexico experience in tech transfers and applying it to China is, In fact TPhuang has a few post after i said the mexican experience an how could be apply it to China.

He did not say i was wrong, only you trying to slander me and simply because you think China can not learn from the Mexican experience or market forces do not impact jet engine development in China, or even in what degree Chinese wrong polices in jet engine manufacure and design have benefited Mexico`s engine jet industry

MiG-29 said:

Talking about Mexico experience in tech transfers and applying it to China is, In fact TPhuang has a few post after i said the mexican experience an how could be apply it to China.

He did not say i was wrong, only you trying to slander me and simply because you think China can not learn from the Mexican experience or market forces do not impact jet engine development in China, or even in what degree Chinese wrong polices in jet engine manufacure and design have benefited Mexico`s engine jet industry

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Again, where did I do that? It'd be nice if you didn't cast generalized accusations and actually bothered to realize that you're responding to more than one individual. This forum isn't composed of a mass of China-red slime molds you know.

The original point about Mexico's experience with tech transfers was kinda moot to begin with since it has already been brought up that 1) China preceded Mexico in pursuing that strategy before the post-Tiananmen embargo made it impossible (how else do you think China got its hands on the CFM-56 and the RR Spey Mk202?), and 2) it still pursues and benefits from a tech transfer strategy where ever it still can, and where it can still benefit (not in the realm of key jet engine technologies unfortunately).

I'm going to presume your main point was that China can learn something from Mexico's approach to aerospace development, but once it was pointed out that China preceded Mexico in that approach and that there were limitations to that strategy for China that Mexico isn't subject to, you simply ignored that new point and continued to recycle posts about Mexico, and bringing in other countries to boot, without a single new discussion point about Chinese engines.

It's really not that hard to see just how badly this thread has been derailed. Simply ask yourself, "In the last few pages since this discussion started, what if anything has anyone learned about Chinese jet engines?" Personally, I really learned nothing. In fact, I didn't even learn a thing about the benefits of cooperative tech transfer strategies, because if you actually bothered to read up a bit on the history of Chinese aerospace before opining you'd have found that it's that been done before.

Good News, the Big Brother is on Vacation!

So China is suppose to follow what Mig thinks is the right policy. The guy that didn't know Mexico was in the top 5 countries that steal and violate intellectual property to which he used to bash China in doing until I told him thinks he can dictate what's best for China. Why should China follow Mexico when it has no domestic engine at all to show for to think they would know? And he says he doesn't declare Mexico is better than China in making engines where he says China has to follow Mexico's example?

MiG-29 said:

The discussion goes in circles not because of me, is becuase of lack of civility, i won`t respond to people either attacking me or trying to insult me or drag me into senseless arguments.

And yes i can see what you really try, you are accusing me, which shows you have accuse me from the begining of being off topic


That is the only reason you do it, you are not including your self simply you are trying to attack me is this is off topic get MiG-29 out of this thread as usual.

Politeness means let a moderator do it, you are no one to decide what and goes or judge who can or can not opine.
You simply want to play the moderator type decision

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I find it hilarious that you accuse others playing moderator, because you are playing moderator yourself by claiming others are attacking you. Your rant is nothing but another one of your , where you assume others to behave as you do. For example, you accuse others of making senseless arguments to drag you into never ending debate, because that is the very tactic you employ when you try to "win" an argument.

If you feel that others have broken the forum rules with personal attacks, then you can report their posts to the moderators. I think we all know that the moderators will just tell you to stop, since you do not understand the difference between personal attacks and disagreeing with you.

Finally, what this forum lacks isn't civility. What it lacks is logic. For example, your respond to a thread about Chinese jet engine with Mexico aerospace industry is a logical fallacy known as . It is nothing but a fake argument to make it seems as if you have a retort to others, but in reality it has no logical inference to the topic at hand. In fact, majority of your arguments are like that. That is why people often accuse you of off topics, and they have every reason to call you out on it.