Chinese Engine Development

MiG-29 said:

Is not that necesarilly, see superjet Sukhoi, it has snecma technology, is Russia allied with France?
Or Boeing Russia, the Russians design the wings leading edge of B-787.

A nation does not need to be alligned, it just need to come to an agreement in which they make money.
Or ARJ-21 and C919 the have western tech or JH-7 has speys from England.

The problem of th jet tech transfers to China is both sides must agree, only that, everything is business.
If the western side or Russian side feel the Chinese will keep their word and both sides makes money, the deal goes at least in some type of transfers.

Click to expand...

look, the west will work with china and russia only to the extent that they are getting something for cheaper or when they don't risk giving away their trade secrets.

the u.s. will never be willing to provide to china the level of technical assistance it gives to japan or south korea for example. this is because in any deal you want to get something in return. for that level of deal the u.s. demands a chunk of your sovereignty.

PS: what happened to engine development anyway?

MiG-29 said:

I do no see that, i can see a china perfectly integrated at least with Russia and more economic sense make engines on a joint venture.

Click to expand...

Now you're trolling. You see why people say you're sour grapes?

MiG-29 said:

If the western side or Russian side feel the Chinese will keep their word and both sides makes money, the deal goes at least in some type of transfers.

Click to expand...

Now what? Chinese are now unreliable lying businessmen who have no sense of honesty? Actually, reading back on your past comments, I'm fairly certain that's how you view Chinese.

People are scared to cooperate with the China because the phrase "learn from each other" is not simply an empty motto to China. China ACTUALLY learns as much as possible when cooperating with foreign countries, so much in fact, that other countries are now wary of the Chinese capacity to learn, adapt and evolve on their designs.

Case in point; high speed rail. Kawasaki charged China exorbitant prices for their second-tier bullet train propulsion technology. They sold China old technology for a very high price and expected China to have to keep coming back for more. Guess what, China improved on the technology they bought and now China has the most sophisticated high-speed rail network IN THE WORLD. And surprise, surprise, Kawasaki is now wailing tears of jealousy. They are now accusing China of "copying" their designs and sidelining international suppliers, blah blah, et cetera. Funny thing is; Kawasaki propulsion technology cannot propel trains to 486km/h, which was reached by a Chinese train meaning that the Chinese cannot possibly be using Kawasaki technology for their newer trains.

Likewise, if any foreign jet engine firm cooperates with China, they will have a hard time keeping China as a customer. It's in foreign companies' best interest to not help China achieve a breakthrough, the later the Chinese achieve a breakthrough, the longer they have to profit. The Chinese will keep their word in contracts, but after that, they will be making more money than the company that provided them with the original technology.

Hyperwarp said:

PS: what happened to engine development anyway?

Click to expand...

lol blame avic for being so hush hush we gotta make up irrelevant stuff to argue about

Well... let me reply to Mig-29 and all his nonsensical blabbering.

First, globalisation is not such a simple thing as to be completed in a few sentence and that is what he is trying to do to proof a point that is actually not that simple to solve. Also there are now plenty of studies on the dismay of globalisation. I am not going to go through all those, my suggestion is - go to the library and borrow a book to read.

Secondly, for a nation to be able to completely copy a high tech product like an aerospace engine, the industrial base needed to be there, so was the R&D and manufacturing capability. It is not like a simple iphone, it is material science, physics, mechanical, etc etc. You can just take a physical engine, strip it apart and go, voila! So that is how it is made. It just don't work that way.

Thirdly, it is also useless for anyone of us to try to talk to people like Mig-29 who already had his mind fix on the 'evilness' of China.

Fourth, if Mig-29 could put up strong argument, it will change many of our minds, but as of now, he is nothing but a troll, who like to put in senseless sales brochures, talks from chief designers of a engine company praising his own products, then pissed on anything that the Chinese made by saying things that other more learned forumer had already disputed again and again and again.

And always ending in something like... this is a forum, I am entitled to my opinions, or I will choose who to reply to or who not to because there are people who already have their mind set on something, and that is silly. If you feel so strongly about something, just state those down.

Some advises though, there are very learned people in this forum, so don't B.S, or you will be shot down.

PS. I am from Singapore, I have no preference to any country but my own. However, I don't like it when people pissed on other nations just to stir up trouble in a perfectly peaceful forum, or to bring up your own national pride. And frankly... your knowledge (as you claim) in latin america, Russia and China is close to zero from all the post I read, just some random jargons that you found on the net and put it here.

jobjed said:

People are scared to cooperate with the China...

Click to expand...

Well that is simply not true. The fact that China has being one of the top 3 in FDI over the last 2 decades is evidence enough that even as people whine about China's lax IP laws, they are still willing to hand over technology and investment hand over fist. So the evidence over the past 30 years goes contrary to Migs assertions that western companies are so afraid that they are willing to cut off their own nose to spite the face, in a manner of speaking.

And, lets not pretend these "partnerships" between western countries is some kind of misguided notion of 19th century gentlemens agreement, it isn't - see the Airbus/Boeing EU trade dispute for example. You don't think these multibillion dollar conglomerates that probably have the US president on speed dial got to where they are by playing fair, do you?!

Lastly, one should also keep in mind that technology transfers is not theft when it is sold or traded fairly; no one forced anyone to hand over their research, they sold it for market access, they are not a helpless victims - especially when you have at your disposal world class lawyers, bankers and government officials!

MiG-29 said:

I am selective for 2 reasons.

First many of the fellow forum members have already fixed views, they are not going to change their opinion, so what ever i say they will say no to me, if i say white they say black.
So this only will make the threat boring for other people.

Click to expand...

That's just you projecting your own faults on to other people.

Looking at your post history, you have insisted on your opinion on J-20's aerodynamics being right despite Dr. Song's paper on J-20 showing all your arguments to be wrong. You have gone as far as making up your own mathematical definition, such as calling two planes at an angle as coplanar, just so you can continue an argument that you have already lost. The only person on this forum that has a fixed opinion that will not change regardless of fact is you, Mr. Mig. I think that is obvious to every member of the forum here.

MiG-29 said:

Th other reason some people are not attacking my arguments but my person, since i m not Chinese it happens i have a different view, some people get offended if i post for example things in the media which do not conform to their views, so they start attacking me personally.

So no need to make the thread that long since them are there just to attack me and not to have a conversation.

So my silence me means i agree to disagree.

I answer to the fellow forum members to whom first are more open, to whom we can have conversation even if we disagree and those who attack my arguments politely without personal attacks.

Click to expand...

You have made complaints to the administrators multiple times, to the point that the administrators told you to stop because attacks of your posts are not personal attacks. So what's actually happening is that you take offense to those who do not agree with your view, especially when those people debunk your arguments on a consistent basis.

Instead of pointing fingers at others, you need to be more humble and admit your opinions as wrong.

MiG-29 said:

In my opinion, China will control more IPR more issues because China as any nation needs investment, so like Mexico they need investment in aerospace.

I put my country as a example because i know why Mexico is doing that.


Chinese aerospace planers also are watching Mexico sucess in getting investment an access to some jet engine technology know how, so they will do a different policy to harmonize the interests of the foreign jet engine companies who want to invest in China.

Russia, India and Brazil will do similar strategies as well adapting their needs to harmonize them too why because they need investment in aerospace.

Globalization works like that.

regards

Click to expand...

China can build complete jet engines, Mexico cannot. So, China does not need to look at a less technical advanced nation like Mexico for ideas.

MiG-29 said:

Interesting and funny how you want to claim only you should be allowed to post here, this video shows some western and Chinese view about the realities of engine design in China but i guess you want to only post here, exclude me since my view is from a non chinese person so you claim my opinions do not belong here.

probably if i post things like this you would like me to post

The sci-tech result has after all placed the Chinese jet-engine onto the historical stage for self-development, marking China to become, after the USA, Russia, Britain and France, the fifth country in the world that is able to design and manufacture independently the jet-engine.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

But i worder how real is this since Ukraine makes engines to power L-15 and Japan makes Jet engines to power T-4 flown early in the 1990s and IHI makes the engine that powers P-x

The Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) F3 is a low bypass turbofan engine developed in Japan by Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries for the Kawasaki T-4 trainer aircraft. The first prototype engine, the XF3, was manufactured in 1981 and first flew in the XT-4 in July 1985.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The Hongdu L-15 comprises six hard points of which four are located under the two wings and two under the wing-tips. It can accommodate 3,000kg of payload. The aircraft can carry short range air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, bombs and rocket pods.

Ivchenko Progress AI-222K-25F Engines
The aircraft is powered by two Ivchenko Progress AI-222K-25F afterburning turbofan engines. Each engine can generate 4,200kg of thrust afterburner

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Or Germany has MTU, Italy Avio, Spain Sener (ITP) which make an operational engine used on Tornados and Eurofighters.

I guess germany is not capable of making jet engines by their own

Is it good go alone well? In Europe Germany does not do that and has a operational engine

Click to expand...

It is funny how you cherry picked L-15 engine as an example. China is operating hundreds of J-11 that are equipped with WS-10 engines, whereas Japan's F-2 uses American engines. Ignoring the existence WS-10 does not make those engines disappear.

So yes, it is true that China is able to design and manufacture jet engines independently. This is especially so when no country, not even Russia, would give China the core technologies for jet engines.

MiG-29 said:

No it is not like that, you simply try to disprove me and force me to engage into a long debate where later you will try to claim i am th one to blame for an off topic and so on.

I know many people here do that, others attack on a hidden way, i know that.

So yes i cherry pick who i shall talk, simply because i will pick people who also respect the difference of opinion, and do not blame others as if it was a sin have a different world view.

I know you want me to engage in senseless debates with people who won`t change their mind and later you will claim i am guilty of making the thread too long or off topic.

You think i will go for that bait.
But no i won`t, i have my opinions and i do not break any rule for that, but here you want me to get in debate with people who do not want to accept a different world view.

Since you know perfectly i a the most polite i can you try always to claim i am off topic, so that is the way you try to silence me

Click to expand...

I do not see why your opinions deserve respect. Imagine someone insisting that the Earth being flat in front of groups of scientists, engineers, and ordinary people that have common sense. Should such opinion deserve respect? I think not, since it is not an educated opinion. Yet, insisting the Earth being flat is essentially what you are doing when you lecture people with your views that contradicted with established knowledge.

So despite your above speech where you essentially claimed you are morally superior to everyone else, I think everyone knows the true reason you are ignoring people's posts is that your fallacies don't work on us. Also, your tactic of dragging people into a long debate then enrage them by mindless and endless repetition of the same points simply does not work as it did in other forums. I think that really shows the high standard of this forum.