This is why I stopped frequenting this site except when big news come along like the past few days with the module. Every time I want to read up on some conversation, I have to dig through a bunch of pointless drivel stirred up by mig29. Other posters, even regulars, taking his bait doesn't help either.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
This is why I stopped frequenting this site except when big news come along like the past few days with the module. Every time I want to read up on some conversation, I have to dig through a bunch of pointless drivel stirred up by mig29. Other posters, even regulars, taking his bait doesn't help either.
broadsword
Brigadier
They are replying to all of your posts. By not replying, you're implying that you have no answer to their rebuttals but just trolling along by answering to the easier ones. You started the latest round of debate by bringing in Mexico's aerospace industry that exists in a different geopolitical climate that merits different policies from that of China. China and Mexico are different. That, you know.
And when the posters rebut your reasoning, you choose to ignore them but continue trolling. You can't cherry pick who to answer if you have integrity, regardless of whether they change their opinion because you started the momentum.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
No it is not like that, you simply try to disprove me and force me to engage into a long debate where later you will try to claim i am th one to blame for an off topic and so on.
I know many people here do that, others attack on a hidden way, i know that.
So yes i cherry pick who i shall talk, simply because i will pick people who also respect the difference of opinion, and do not blame others as if it was a sin have a different world view.
I know you want me to engage in senseless debates with people who won`t change their mind and later you will claim i am guilty of making the thread too long or off topic.
You think i will go for that bait.
But no i won`t, i have my opinions and i do not break any rule for that, but here you want me to get in debate with people who do not want to accept a different world view.
Since you know perfectly i a the most polite i can you try always to claim i am off topic, so that is the way you try to silence me
The nonstop talking about joint adventure with foreign companies on license production of jet engine and development is STUPID and LAME.
Why?
Because it ain't gonna happen. WHy talking about something that is not going to happen ???!
All we know is China gonna to breakthrough on its own. We should be talking how China can improve within itself .
It can happen if some of the things are being corrected internally.
STOP TALKING ABOUT FOreign Firms. Once China makes some headway into this on its own, a lot of those foreign firms are going to be ditched and cast aside for good.
Why?
Because it ain't gonna happen. WHy talking about something that is not going to happen ???!
All we know is China gonna to breakthrough on its own. We should be talking how China can improve within itself .
It can happen if some of the things are being corrected internally.
STOP TALKING ABOUT FOreign Firms. Once China makes some headway into this on its own, a lot of those foreign firms are going to be ditched and cast aside for good.
broadsword
Brigadier
They can say you're the one who can't change his opinion. The fact is this is a forum on Chinese military but you're the one who brought in a new contention but would not change your opinion when challenged. Why bring another country's aerospace industry into the picture? It may have cutting edge blade technology but does it have an equivalent to to WS-10? You have not responded to those rebuttals that have substance, never mind from whom.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
I laid down my point of clearly saying in my opinion why china does not get so easily tech transfer an potential way of change that people who are open minded see easily the importance of investment in aviation however you want me to argue senselessly an fall in your bait since i said we live in a global world so Russia is a potential partner and its a matter of a different policy an sooner or later china will do it forced by Globalization
broadsword
Brigadier
Why don't you take on the points laid down by the others? It is obvious you brought in this issue so that you can have the last say.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Well look my points were laid down based upon the economic realities of aircraft design, and upon what i know about Latin american aerospace and Chinese and Russian aerospace.
I have told you jet engine design is not cheap, it requieres a market, safety and be on on the forefront to be economically effective.
Globalization has brought that because aircraft design is becoming more and more expensive.
I don`t take on them because as i told you, their points are based upon the idea, China should go alone, it is isolated and as a patriotic duty should be 100% Chinese and for the pride of the nation no cooperation since cooperation is a disgrace and all nations steal so steal is good so worries about tech transfers by western companies are not relevant since that is what they did in the past.
Plus in their points they do not see the economic realities.
I do no see that, i can see a china perfectly integrated at least with Russia and more economic sense make engines on a joint venture.
In my past i also though cooperation with the US was not good for Mexico, but after i saw in mexico some components of GExn jet engines are designed i changed my mind.
So the only thing you want is to argue and argue with people that think completly different to me and won`t change their point of view.
Economic sense makes nation cooperate, that is the reason Germany`s MTU makes EJ-200 with Avio, Senner and RR, is not that MTU can not make a jet engine, is laughable that report that says 5 countries in the world can only make jet engines, in fact more countries can do them, but on the terms of market ad economic efficiency is better going in joint ventures specially if a nation wants the top technology and the best engine in the market.
Can China make and design a jet engine yes they can but as reliable as they need in 2013, no i do not think so, however Germany by cooperating gets more knowledge and it is easier to make the engine.
Thatis the reason ITP designs in Mexico, because mexicans also have different ideas too that add new ideas and solutions.
Is also laughable to think cooperation makes a nation less or China can not make joint ventures even with the US or Europe, however to happen that you need Changes in policy and economic pressures and China has them.
i have to say i admire your tenacity and your perseverence, but sometimes i question just whether you are arguing a point or arguing just to argue. i know there are comments you are responding to, (some of which are more reasonable while others are rather inflammatory) but you are feeding a vicious cycle and taking us to no constructive direction.
i think it is fairly obvious (i've said this but i'll say it again) that these countries you listed, mexico included, are POLITICALLY ALIGNED with the u.s. and have common interests with it as a result of circumstance.
similarly, china is IS NOT politically aligned with the u.s. and therefore have different interests due to circumstance. the "cooperative" approach you describe is simply not available to china because of this fact.
the u.s. is a hegemon, and the only way to get in bed with a hegemon (as these countries you listed) is to let it have the upper hand. all these countries will benefit and do well as long as they do not cross the u.s.
china, like russia, will never be one of these countries. china, like russia, knows that what is good for the u.s. may not necessarily be good for themselves. (even though most of the time it is)
they also happen to have such huge resources at their disposal that they don't necessarily have to always stay on the americans' good side to survive.
america is a hegemon because it has bargaining power. china and russia are both countries with so much bargaining power that they are (or want to be) hegemons in their own right, and you can't blame them. they have so much bargaining power that it doesn't make sense to get in a little-brother relationship with america. unfortunately, this is the only type of relationship that the u.s. (or any hegemon for that matter) is comfortable with. maybe this is something you don't quite understand, but that's simply how the world works. hegemons are called hegemons for a reason.
with so much bargaining power one would be foolish to put oneself in a secondary position to the u.s., nor would the u.s. believe that such powerful countries would be willing to play second banana. that is called the prisoner's dilemma, it is one of the fundamental premises of game theory and strategic theory.
it's simply circumstance, everybody does what makes sense for themselves depending on what they have.
that being said, i don't see any real argument beyond these simple facts. nobody's approach to development is better or worse unless they're simply not putting their back into it because of financial or structural problems.
so let's PLEASE just get on with it!
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Is not that necesarilly, see superjet Sukhoi, it has snecma technology, is Russia allied with France?
Or Boeing Russia, the Russians design the wings leading edge of B-787.
A nation does not need to be alligned, it just need to come to an agreement in which they make money.
Or ARJ-21 and C919 the have western tech or JH-7 has speys from England.
The problem of th jet tech transfers to China is both sides must agree, only that, everything is business.
If the western side or Russian side feel the Chinese will keep their word and both sides makes money, the deal goes at least in some type of transfers.