AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I didn't bring up Mexico in a thread about Chinese jet engines especially since Mexico doesn't have any domestic engines to show for.
Last edited:
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
I didn't bring up Mexico in a thread about Chinese jet engines especially since Mexico doesn't have any domestic engines to show for.
when you are a poor/weak country with less bargaining power, entering deals with strong countries like the u.s. are bound to be one sided in terms of benefits to either party. mexico lets american firms in and do whatever they want because they simply have no choice, and in such an arrangement they at least get SOME benefits: employment, tech transfers, etc.
china has definately isolated itself politically and economically for many years, and the whole process of economic reform is in a very large part a controlled process of de-isolation. one of the major reasons china chose to isolate itself is because of the very fact that, as a poor and weak country, the west had more bargaining power and took advantage when dealing with china. (we prefer to oppress ourselves, thank you
) however, when china got itself together and opened up market reforms in 1978, it was still poor but no longer so weak; but china is so very big that its size and indeed its poverty became in itself part of its bargaining power. more than any other country china had MASSIVE amounts of cheap labour and also MASSIVE amounts of market potential, this is why the west is willing to enter into joint-ventures and other protectionist conditions imposed by the chinese government just to get a slice of that pie.
because china has so much bargaining power just from its sheer size and the size of its markets, the ccp can put its own interests above that of the west. the west understandably sees china as a major source of potential competition, this is why they set up protectionist policies of their own to isolate china today. the fact that china will continue to copy, reverse-engineer, and develop domestic engines shows that they are not happy with the west having a choke-hold on such technology. (because they don't want to have to depend on anyone else, and the west knows this)
but china and mexico are actually quite similar in a socioeconomic sense, the difference is that china has more bargaining power:
-in mexico, american firms do anything they want and collude with the local elite to rob the people
-in china, firms connected to the ccp do anything they want and collude with the government to rob the people, while american firms have to deal through a middleman who demands a huge cut
Last edited:
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Look
Be realistic, China has broken more agreements with Russia in aerospace than India.
The Al-31 is build in India, with complete license.
Have the Indians build MiG-21s call them indigenously and sell them?
No they have not
India has keep all the licenses with Russia clean, the Russians are satisfied with the Indian policy.
China has a very long history of "indigenizing" which is basicly Cloning foreign tech and naming it as it was domestic.
This has annoyed many foreign companies, from Japanese trains, German cars, Russian Su-27s and so on.
So Honeywell will think twice before transfering tech.
Russia has even warned China not to clone the Al-31 and russian sources say the WS-10 incorporates a lot of Al-31 and this is not the Russian media but it is said by Saturn officials .
The same goes for 117.
The Russians are really trying to sell SU-35s, but the condition was for China to sign an agreement not to clone Russian tech and that includes the 117.
India has not such poblem, understand this, any nation can copy, India and Mexico can copy, however what you do at the end is destroy foreign investment.
China has a very large market, Mexico is 13 times smaller, so if we want investment we need to keep foreign tech safer.
In fact probably one of the mottos of Mexican aerospace officials going to aerospace shows to promote mexico as a destintion for aerospace investment is Intelectual safety
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Look
China can get all the jet engine tech as long as they respect all the agreements, the case is IHI of Japan, why Y-20 is bigger it uses Russian engines.
Japan C-X uses american engines, but here is but the P-x uses IHI engines, yes japanese designed engines they use 4 instead of 2.
IHI folowed a policy of cooperation, the worked in international programs, they developed the jet engine fo the T-4 and made jet engines for the F-15Js and F-4Js underlicense
Did the US complaign? No, they do not.
Now my point never was mexico as a power, my point was is in mexico we have designers doing very advanced design and the knowedge of mexican engineers is very high in what respects jet engine design and we are not behind China in many respects, why? simply because those engineers work for not experimental untested engines, but for engines with commercial applications on Boeing or Airbus aircraft and actually they make money, is not wasted investment.
Can you control new ideas?
The answer is not, Mexico could develop new ideas in new engines, but economically is useless.
China for example can develop new engines like Russia does, true, but tell me if Boeing and Airbus use western engines who uses Russian engines?
Only russian jets.
China will only power Chinese jets true, but here is the issue is not that you have the technology, but you can make money with it.
So in mexico they have opted to become suppliers, in few words Frisa makes money of pratt and whittney and Rolls royce.
GE give jobs to mexicans and the Government is happy, those engineers are happy too same is ITP or Honeywell.
In few words the nationalistic card in mexico is useless we are happy becoming suppliers and making money or giving jobs to our people.
Can China do it, yes they can, and in many instances China is like Mexico, however many times China wants to make money in a way it annoys the interests of foreign companies.
Last edited:
for sure, but china's goal is not to attract aerospace investment. china's goal is to become a top aerospace power. it also knows that western firms can't keep their eyes off the chinese market no matter how bad the protectionism and copyright violation seems, especially now that global demand is dropping and they need capital.
the end result may be embargoes and trade disputes with west, but just look at the progress of chinese aerospace industry compared to india's and you must see that they have good reason for doing things the way they do it.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
You have a very wrong idea, Mexico is becoming an aerospace power, why? Frisa supplies parts to Rolls Royce and Pratt and whittney engines, make math, how much money do you think Frisa does? what position do you think Frisa is as a supplier of jet engines?
Mexico is now becoming and aerospace power because being a supplier makes money and gets tech, in fact as humble as we are Frisa today is one ot the top suppliers of jet engine casings in the world.
China is also an aerospace power, i have no doubt about it, however we have different policies, in mexico the goverment is helping mexican firms to become suppliers to the foreign companies stablished in Mexico, once example is Kuo aerospace that supplies landing gear parts to Bombardier.
For China they need to export their engines, but so far China uses Russian engines in their export jets or copies of Russian engines
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Your problem is you don't like Chinese being optimistic. But hypocritically to the contrary you can bring up a positive fictional future to brag about now how Mexico can make a better engine than China when Mexico has no/nada/nil domestic engines to show-off now as a basis. You're trying to distract from your own logic that you yourself says Mexico has an advantage with tech transfers. Meaning your fictional domestic engines that don't exist now will be stolen from American or European or whoever's blueprints. Can Mexico do it without tech transfers? By your own arguments... no.
To reiterate my previous point to Mig, it is far more important for China to build the capability to produce what it needs for aerospace far more than any reasons of profitability here, particularly since it provides the tools for carrying out whatever strategic interests China may have.
mexico does not have economic interests seperated from the u.s. and cannot ever go against american economic/political hegemony because the guys that run the country depend on the u.s. to keep them in butter.
japan is also part of this hegemony and they are doing very well for themselves playing their part, so why bite the hand that feeds you?
russian engines are not widely used in commercial applications because:
1. they have fallen behind the west in making reliable turbofans
2. the boeing/airbus duopoly has existing contracts and inside ties with firms like g.e., honeywell, rolls royce, etc
china is the biggest potential market for every commodity or product on earth. it also has divergent political interests with the u.s. it is understandable that they want to be able to supply themselves in case they are one day denied access to certain goods that the west have a choke-hold on: like commercial aviation products.
at the same time, their developement of such technologies allows them to potentially make alot of money by subverting the western-dominated economic oligopoly in the aviation industry.
simple as that.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
see what we are talking, i am saying China has isolated itself, because China has complaigns by foreign companies of commercializing foreign developed tech, from Japanese trains Germans, americans or japanese car companies or Su-27s aka J-11B, if China acknowledges that is a whole different issue.
In Mexico we are not designing jet engines for a a mexican company, but for foreign companies, true, but the engineers have the knowledge and work for jet engines used on Airbus and Boeing aircraft.
And they make money as suppliers, do we care? no we do not, is not nationalism but money and jobs behind our aerospace industry