Chinese Engine Development

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Provided if there are No foreign help on this, What China needs today is to waste some Money for ALL-OUT, Large scale production of military and Transport Plane jet engines. That's only way out of this doldrum is through Trial-n-Error, there NO substitute for that.

Everytime I see Chinese articles regarding some breakthrough on material or tech , I laugh at them. There are tons of them throughout the years saying breakthrough this breakthrough that. It's all talk and didn't translate in real environment.There's no breakthrough in big scheme of things.
it is not so easy, why? trial an error in commercial jets is forbidden, it is always perfection what they aim, commercial jets carry people, civilians who want safety, Embraer aircraft got good reputation by their safety.

GE is reliable in terms of safety, for the Chinese J-15 has even Al-31s for a reason, safety is first, but on a C919, you carry people, civilians who want safety.

as long as GE and RR make safe and reliable higher thrust engines, their lead will remain, in Mexico as well as in China, India or Brazil they know why RR, and GE are the leading jet engine companies so Brazil will use western engines for embraer despite brazil does design jet engines too, China is the same.

In Mexico for such a reason we know is better being a provider, since Frisa makes casing for many jet engines used on Embraer, Boeing, Bombardier or Airbus aircraft build by RR and Pratt&Whitney.

China knows that and for such a reason they do both, cooperate and design but the reality is commercial jet engines are still away from China even for their Y-20
 

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
here is the dilema for China, China wants to challenge the west, however the west is ahead for at least 30 years, to narrow the gap they need tech transfers.

China can design engines, but their problem is their gap makes their engines useless economically for big aircraft and their military jets still are to some degree unreliable.
even GEnx with GE.


China`s main problem is the risks companies see of being copied and ripped off by Chinese companies and these includes GE, Lyulka or RR.

Well if Western companies are 30 yrs ahead and afraid of being copied and don't to share the the latest, then China can attempt to purchase of transfer of something about 10 yrs behind. It's a bit old but Not too OLD like 50 yrs old.
Actually tech from the 80s aren't too bad. B2 and Raptors came to the scene in the 80s. And that's 30 yrs ago already.
 

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
it is not so easy, why? trial an error in commercial jets is forbidden, it is always perfection what they aim, commercial jets carry people, civilians who want safety, Embraer aircraft got good reputation by their safety.

GE is reliable in terms of safety, for the Chinese J-15 has even Al-31s for a reason, safety is first, but on a C919, you carry people, civilians who want safety.

as long as GE and RR make safe and reliable higher thrust engines, their lead will remain, in Mexico as well as in China, India or Brazil they know why RR, and GE are the leading jet engine companies so Brazil will use western engines for embraer despite brazil does design jet engines too, China is the same.

In Mexico for such a reason we know is better being a provider, since Frisa makes casing for many jet engines used on Embraer, Boeing, Bombardier or Airbus aircraft build by RR and Pratt&Whitney.

China knows that and for such a reason they do both, cooperate and design but the reality is commercial jet engines are still away from China even for their Y-20

China can start with large transport plane mostly cargoes.
Anyway, China has stop thinking to chasing the latest because the latest won't be shared by others.
Concentrate on something bit obsolete 10 to 15 yrs behind and available and work from there.

Besides whatever China produce would be mostly for domestic consumption because the west will block China's high-tech stuffs even if they are competitive. So, worrying a plane being economic competitve is Not a big issue in China. They are for strategic reasons.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
China can start with large transport plane mostly cargoes.
Anyway, China has stop thinking to chasing the latest because the latest won't be shared by others.
Concentrate on something bit obsolete 10 to 15 yrs behind and available and work from there.

Besides whatever China produce would be mostly for domestic consumption because the west will block China's high-tech stuffs even if they are competitive. So, worrying a plane being economic competitve is Not a big issue in China.

Yano, none of the world powers that had to catch up technologically with its peers during their historical rise followed this sort of logic :p. Not Germany, not Japan, and not Russia.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
Provided if there are No foreign help on this, What China needs today is to waste some Money for ALL-OUT, Large scale production of military and Transport Plane jet engines. That's only way out of this doldrum is through Trial-n-Error, there NO substitute for that.

Everytime I see Chinese articles regarding some breakthrough on material or tech , I laugh at them. There are tons of them throughout the years saying breakthrough this breakthrough that. It's all talk and didn't translate in real environment.There's no breakthrough in big scheme of things.

Chairman Mao once said "quantitative changes can become qualitative changes". Enough small breakthroughs and there'll be a big breakthrough one day.
 

no_name

Colonel
How come I seemed to remember a similar argument awhile back, before the J-20 is unveiled people were saying that China should come up with a F-117 equivalent before they should even attempt a F-22 class project?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Well if Western companies are 30 yrs ahead and afraid of being copied and don't to share the the latest, then China can attempt to purchase of transfer of something about 10 yrs behind. It's a bit old but Not too OLD like 50 yrs old.
Actually tech from the 80s aren't too bad. B2 and Raptors came to the scene in the 80s. And that's 30 yrs ago already.

The problem for the Chinese is and always will be as long as they are behind, economic efficency.
I will give you and example.

Modern Rolls Royce engines are not pure british, contrary to what people think, Rolls Royce has suppliers.
GE is the same.

GE gets designers or suppliers from several countries to help, same is RR.

If China wants to compete needs internationalize its programs.

Why? first is risk partners, GE works with the German MTU in the GExn engine which is the engine used on B-787.

German engineers are working in the program, same is Boeing Russia, which used Russian engineers to design some parts of the B-787 and GE Mexico, where mexican engineers design engine components for GExn engines.

Today aviation is an international venture, where the best companies are the ones globalizing better, Embraer is an example.


Military is the same, Today India builds the Al-31 with thrust vectoring with full license in India, for Russia, India is a reliable partner, in the same way Japan is for the US in F-100 engines for F-15s.

China has a very bad reputation, at least in what respects intelectual property protection, Russia was worried AL-31 was going to be cloned without any respect for Lyulka Saturn, so no license was granted.

So China in order to catch up needs to re-invent the wheel, in this case the jet engine, this takes time and money and you might end up with an engine which is basicly still behind and economically is still inefficient.


Why J-20, Y-20 and J-31 have russian engines? the answer is reliability and the fact the opossition already improved their engines.

Too much talk was said about China improving their AL-31s, when in Russia they did the same and fly much better versions.


To get tech transfers you need to pay a lot of money an you always get old technology.
To be risk partner you need to respect your partner rights, otherwise you get not partner, Russia is the only nation willing to share important military engine tech, but they are not going to do it as long as China does not stick to international agreements and threat the economic interests of Russian firms

China is trying to force western firms to share their secrets, but they only do if large amount of money is paid and some technology is restricted, that is the case of Embraer or Airbus in China.
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
If reinventing the well is the necessary path to attaining mastery of the entire gas turbine production chain, then no price is too high regardless of what the naysayers say, particularly given how far the Soviets went in achieving near parity with western technology.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The problem for the Chinese is and always will be as long as they are behind, economic efficency.
I will give you and example.

Modern Rolls Royce engines are not pure british, contrary to what people think, Rolls Royce has suppliers.
GE is the same.
.
.
.
To get tech transfers you need to pay a lot of money an you always get old technology.
To be risk partner you need to respect your partner rights, otherwise you get not partner, Russia is the only nation willing to share important military engine tech, but they are not going to do it as long as China does not stick to international agreements and threat the economic interests of Russian firms

China is trying to force western firms to share their secrets, but they only do if large amount of money is paid and some technology is restricted, that is the case of Embraer or Airbus in China.

You made some good points, MIG. However, unlike Russia, the Chinese are handicapped by the US-imposed embargo on military and dual-use technology after the Tienanmen Square unrest. It's hampered their military and duel-use technologies, but China might be better off in the long-run, because they will be more self sufficient by developing innovating, or stealing the goods.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The problem for the Chinese is and always will be as long as they are behind, economic efficency.
I will give you and example.

Modern Rolls Royce engines are not pure british, contrary to what people think, Rolls Royce has suppliers.
GE is the same.

GE gets designers or suppliers from several countries to help, same is RR.

If China wants to compete needs internationalize its programs.

Why? first is risk partners, GE works with the German MTU in the GExn engine which is the engine used on B-787.

German engineers are working in the program, same is Boeing Russia, which used Russian engineers to design some parts of the B-787 and GE Mexico, where mexican engineers design engine components for GExn engines.

Today aviation is an international venture, where the best companies are the ones globalizing better, Embraer is an example.


Military is the same, Today India builds the Al-31 with thrust vectoring with full license in India, for Russia, India is a reliable partner, in the same way Japan is for the US in F-100 engines for F-15s.

China has a very bad reputation, at least in what respects intelectual property protection, Russia was worried AL-31 was going to be cloned without any respect for Lyulka Saturn, so no license was granted.

So China in order to catch up needs to re-invent the wheel, in this case the jet engine, this takes time and money and you might end up with an engine which is basicly still behind and economically is still inefficient.


Why J-20, Y-20 and J-31 have russian engines? the answer is reliability and the fact the opossition already improved their engines.

Too much talk was said about China improving their AL-31s, when in Russia they did the same and fly much better versions.


To get tech transfers you need to pay a lot of money an you always get old technology.
To be risk partner you need to respect your partner rights, otherwise you get not partner, Russia is the only nation willing to share important military engine tech, but they are not going to do it as long as China does not stick to international agreements and threat the economic interests of Russian firms

China is trying to force western firms to share their secrets, but they only do if large amount of money is paid and some technology is restricted, that is the case of Embraer or Airbus in China.

Next time you fly in Boeing or Airbus plane I bet you be flying a plane with Chinese made wing or stabilizer
Nothing but BS China has been supplier to Boeing and Airbus for a long time and they have no problem sharing technology
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Airbus will also create a logistics center in Tianjin to harmonize the transport systems for all aircraft components flowing in and out of China, Barron said.

More than half of the Airbus worldwide fleet has components produced in China. The Chinese suppliers are located across the country and handle their own logistics.


And nobody force Airbus to outsource from China They do it out of their own initiative because of price and quality of China aerospace industry. You just mouthing your own baseless prejudice and lack of knowledge

China builds horizontal stabilizers, vertical fins, the aft tail section, doors, wing panels, wire harnesses and other parts on the Next Generation 737 ;747-8 trailing edge wing ribs and 747 8 horizontal stabilizers, vertical fins
,ailerons, spoilers and inboard flaps.In addition,China has an important role on the 787
,
building the rudder, wing to body fairing panels, leading edge and panels for the vertical fin, and other composite part
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Only in Gas Turbine first stage turbine is cooperation restricted out of self preservation combined with ITAR
 
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