Chinese Engine Development

Hendrik_2000 said:

Every engine encountered teething problem when they first introduced even the fame F100 that power early J 16


Comparison with the west is completely unfair. The west has 70 years to perfect the Gas Turbine plus there are cross fertilization between the pioneer engine of England and GE/ In fact Rolls Royce transfer the blue print of first gas turbine to GE. Check this excellent article on Gas Turbine

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China completely missed the incubation period of Gas Turbine from 1950 to 1990. And for years the defense budget was starved from period of 1980 to 1980 .Heck University doesn't even resume teaching until 1989.

Not only that, but China is subjected to technology embargo until today.Chinese engineer or scientist is barred from attending technical conference relating to the strategic technology. No technology transfer whatsoever. The Chinese have to reinvent every progress in Gas turbine alone. with no civilian aerospace industry to speak of It is not an easy job with no pool of experience technician or engineers to draw from

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In my opinion up to what i know Chinese firms do ask tech transfers, if a Western or Japanese company wants to operate in China up to what i know needs to offer a partnership, a joint venture and tech transfers to a chinese partner.


In Mexico, our government does not asks that, GE for example desings, manufactures jet engine parts in Mexico but does not share or transfer any technology and does not need to have a partership with a Mexican company.

ITP, and GE design jet engine parts in Mexico they train and use mexicans to build and design jet engine parts.
For example ITP designs low pressure turbines for jet engines, however no mexican designer or company gets the patent.

We only get people train only that.

In my personal opinion is not that companies have anything against any nation, they only want to keep their secrets well guarded from the competition.

While the mexican aerospace company Frisa aerospace builds ring casings for jet engines of Pratt & Whitney and R&R and all these form part of very advanced jet engines, used in Boeing and Airbus aircraft, Frisa works as a suppier it does not compete directly with Pratt & Whitney or R&R


The problem of China is in my opinion that Chinese companies want to compete with the stablished companies and want military tech, as long as that continues is unlikely western companies will help China.

In Mexico for example Honeywell even tests military jet engines and some modifications are made in Mexico, however Mexico does not build military equipment to compete with the US.

Is Probable that n the next 15 years we will have enough knowledge in Mexico to stay in the forefront of jet engine tech, but we will work as suppliers.

For China the hurdles are higher due to the chinese technological polcies

MiG-29 said:

In my opinion up to what i know Chinese firms do ask tech transfers, if a Western or Japanese company wants to operate in China up to what i know needs to offer a partnership, a joint venture and tech transfers to a chinese partner.


In Mexico, our government does not asks that, GE for example desings, manufactures jet engine parts in Mexico but does not share or transfer any technology and does not need to have a partership with a Mexican company.

ITP, and GE design jet engine parts in Mexico they train and use mexicans to build and design jet engine parts.
For example ITP designs low pressure turbines for jet engines, however no mexican designer or company gets the patent.

We only get people train only that.

In my personal opinion is not that companies have anything against any nation, they only want to keep their secrets well guarded from the competition.

While the mexican aerospace company Frisa aerospace builds ring casings for jet engines of Pratt & Whitney and R&R and all these form part of very advanced jet engines, used in Boeing and Airbus aircraft, Frisa works as a suppier it does not compete directly with Pratt & Whitney or R&R


The problem of China is in my opinion that Chinese companies want to compete with the stablished companies and want military tech, as long as that continues is unlikely western companies will hep China.

In Mexico for example Honeywell even tests military jet engines and some modifications are made, however Mexico does not build military equipment to compete with the US.

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You forget that one of the primary reasons China even decided to pursue an indigenous jet engine industry was because of arms embargoes. No matter though. There's little point comparing Mexico with China. They have different industrial policies to meet their different needs and goals in the international economy.

latenlazy said:

You forget that one of the primary reasons China even decided to pursue an indigenous jet engine industry was because of arms embargoes.

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Perhaps you did not get me, in Mexico, we are getting the skills to design modern effective jet engines, but we are not competing, we are just simply becoming a gear in an already global business.

Frisa for example supplies ring casing for all the jet engines used on Boeing 787, Embraer 190, MRJ and Airbus aircraft.

ITP designs the fan of modern R&R engines used in Airbus aircraft.

Both GE and ITP use mexican designers, who are getting the skills to designs modern jet engines, the difference is simply the mexican government has a completly capitalist policy, giving no preference to mexican or foreign companies, if a mexican company like Frisa makes it it is thanks to the skill of the company, it is as hard as the Chinese way, the difference is we want to be suppliers, not competitors

MiG-29 said:

Perhaps you did not get me, in Mexico, we are getting the skills to design modern effective jet engines, but we are not competing, we are just simply becoming a gear in an already global business.

Frisa for example supplies ring casing for all the jet engines used on Boeing 787, Embraer 190, MRJ and Airbus aircraft.

ITP designs the fan of modern R&R engines used in Airbus aircraft.

Both GE and ITP use mexican designers, who are getting the skills to designs modern jet engines, the difference is simply the mexican government has a completly capitalist policy, giving no preference to mexican or foreign companies, if a mexican company like Frisa makes it it is thanks to the skill of the company, it is as hard as the Chinese way, the difference is we want to be suppliers, not competitors

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I got your point fine. I was simply pointing out that comparison is somewhat pointless because China doesn't have the option Mexico has. China was on track for following the same approach as Mexico and Japan before the '89 Arms Embargo.

TyroneG said:

ANyone venture to guess when will WS10A achieve that status; It's as reliable AL-31F?

Meaning all the prototype planes or single engined plane can rely on WS10A.

5 more yrs, 10?


As of Now, WS10A cannot be trusted fully..

I am really curious of the best case and worst case scenario in terms of time frame. Use your knowledge for an educated guess.

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Until we see a derivative of non afterburning WS-10 for transports or civilian aircrafts, that is a sign of maturity.
Which may never come. I have a feeling that China has already ditched WS-10 and moved on to push research on developments of new engines.

Best case? J-10B production planes flying with WS-10

paintgun said:

Until we see a derivative of non afterburning WS-10 for transports or civilian aircrafts, that is a sign of maturity.
Which may never come. I have a feeling that China has already ditched WS-10 and moved on to push research on developments of new engines.

Best case? J-10B production planes flying with WS-10

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Go to china defense forum and check it for yourself .They just release the new photo of lot 5 J11 B with WS 10A engine I doubt it that China will ditch the WS10A

I don't know why some people bragging about supplying casing to Rolls Royce China has been supplier to the like of Snecma and Ge for along time

China gas turbine technology is way ahead of Mexico for sure. China is now building under license GE LM 6000 gas turbine with most of the component source from domestic supplier

China to produce turbine blade for world's leading civil aircraft
font size ZoomIn ZoomOut

China will manufacture turbine blades for top civil aircraft in a joint venture with a top French company.

Snecma, the biggest subsidiary of France-based Safran Group, a Fortune 500 company, signed an investment contract with Guizhou-based Xinyi Machinery Factory under China Aviation Industry Corporation (CAIC) on Friday to form a turbine blade joint venture.

The first phase of the project involves an investment of 15 million U.S. dollar which will be used to build a blade production line for CFM56 engines, the most widely used aero engine in the world.

"The joint venture represents a high-level cooperation between the two companies," said Yang Rui, deputy director of the Engine Sector of CAIC.

Yang believed that the new venture will bring advanced knowledge in technology, business and management.

"We have enjoyed good cooperation with Xinyi in the past ten years and we see the cooperation in a long-term way," said Marc Ventre, CEO of Snecma.

Safran's presence in China began as early as the 1930s when the company sold engines to the Chinese army. In the 1970s, the company began to provide CFM56 engines for Chinese civil airlines. More than 1,000 CFM56 engines on the Chinese mainland market come from the French company.

Snecma has established cooperative ties with eight Chinese aviation companies, employing more than 2,000 local staff.

paintgun said:

Until we see a derivative of non afterburning WS-10 for transports or civilian aircrafts, that is a sign of maturity.
Which may never come. I have a feeling that China has already ditched WS-10 and moved on to push research on developments of new engines.

Best case? J-10B production planes flying with WS-10

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there are sign that China currently developing variable cycle engine,during the zhuhai aishow, avic spokeman claim that they are developing variable cycle engine.which is no surprise. 3 years ago,Chinese aerospace magazine gave high praise for F-135 engine.that could gave us a clue where they are heading.
already USAF/USN wanted to retrofit all existing jet fighter with VCJ in 2025.

Hendrik_2000 said:

Go to china defense forum and check it for yourself .They just release the new photo of lot 5 J11 B with WS 10A engine I doubt it that China will ditch the WS10A

I don't know why some people bragging about supplying casing to Rolls Royce China has been supplier to the like of Snecma and Ge for along time
.

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Relax take it easy, i was just pointing the difference in approach, but i guess you need to read more, Mexico has an aerospace tradition since 1914, in fact we designed fighter aircraft from most of 1920 to 1940, and fro 1970s we became military suppliers of US companies.


Today, one aerospace AERI has been established for the Querétaro
cluster based on the region’s human capital. This AERI’s primary areas
of focus are: materials, manufacturing processes, coatings, friction
welding and technology development for a “green airplane.” It is precisely
in Querétaro where one of the country and General Electric’s
main engineering- and development-based innovation projects is being
developed. This project involves component design in latest generation
turbines for the civil aviation market, such as the GP7200
engine for the Airbus A380, currently the world’s largest airplane,
or the new GEnX turbine for the Boeing 787 “Dreamliner.” Also in
Querétaro, ITR’s Engineering Center designs low pressure turbines.
In turn, AERI ADRIAA, the Alliance for the Regional Development
of the Automotive and Aerospace Industry, is made up of local nodes
in cities from the Baja California-Sonora-Chihuahua region with the
highest industrial and academic presence. This AERI’s main goal is to
increase companies’ industrial participation by generating proprietary
technologies and strengthening human capital programs in the region.
There is also a proposal for the creation of a network in Baja California,
coordinated by Honeywell. Honeywell’s plant in Mexicali is
working on systems integration testing on the new A350 airplane,
which should come into service by mid-2012. What’s more, it has the
second largest Engineering Center, after one in the United States.
The above capabilities, together with the talent available in Mexico,
must be the axes on which the leveraging strategy is built. This
strategy will allow the successful models of regional innovation companies
to be duplicated.



My point was not tht China can not build jet engines, but you follow a different approach


we simply work for Western Companies, the Chinese companies want tech transfers, in Mexico, they design too, but we do not demand tech transfers, for Scnema, that by the way is also in Mexico, Mexico offers more advantages in terms of exclusivity in terms of IP, China in the other words wants to create her own jet engines, it does not mean other nations are technologicaly speaking behind China or do not offer better options than China in terms of design or manufacture.

China might get the tech, but definitively we are getting the tech too.
However for western companies cooperate with China has risks that in Mexico they might not have at last at the moment and we are not looking to create military items that might threat the US, we are US allies in terms of industrial cooperation and commerce.
So we can get relatively easily access to some technology China might not be able to get


By the way we also design industrial turbines


By 2016 we will have the first industrial turbine designed and manufactured in Mexico.

Hendrik_2000 said:

Go to china defense forum and check it for yourself .They just release the new photo of lot 5 J11 B with WS 10A engine I doubt it that China will ditch the WS10A

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you didn't get what i was trying to say, its not ditching production, but limiting R&D on WS-10.

I go to CDF as much as i visit SDF, thanks for your kind suggestion.

hardware said:

there are sign that China currently developing variable cycle engine,during the zhuhai aishow, avic spokeman claim that they are developing variable cycle engine.which is no surprise. 3 years ago,Chinese aerospace magazine gave high praise for F-135 engine.that could gave us a clue where they are heading.
already USAF/USN wanted to retrofit all existing jet fighter with VCJ in 2025.

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still a long ways to go for China, let's just wait for WS-15 for now