Chinese Engine Development

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
ANyone venture to guess when will WS10A achieve that status; It's as reliable AL-31F?

Meaning all the prototype planes or single engined plane can rely on WS10A.

5 more yrs, 10?


As of Now, WS10A cannot be trusted fully..

I am really curious of the best case and worst case scenario in terms of time frame. Use your knowledge for an educated guess.
 
Last edited:

latenlazy

Brigadier
ANyone venture to guess when will WS10A achieve that status; It's as reliable AL-31F?

Meaning all the prototype planes or single engined plane can rely on WS10A.

5 more yrs, 10?


As of Now, WS10A cannot be trusted fully..

I am really curious of the best case and worst case scenario in terms of time frame. Use your knowledge for an educated guess.
Again, we can use the f100 engine as an analogue. It took about 7 years for them to introduce the f100-200 as a replacement.
 

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
Again, we can use the f100 engine as an analogue. It took about 7 years for them to introduce the f100-200 as a replacement.

You cannot use that 7 yrs as analogy because WS10A is way past overdued. It was introduced since 2001, it's been more than 12 yrs already.


Here's from global security.org

About 2001 to 2002, WS-10 began the flight testing with Su-27 (J-11). In 2003, PLA Daily, official newspaper of PLA, had a report about WS-10 engine. It said: ?ur new Turbofan engine is being tested on China's new fighter (J-11) the fighter is equipped with two different engines, one is made by China, the other is from foreign country. This is the main evidence that WS-10 had been on critical developing stage since 2000.
=================================================================

So, 12 yrs has passed and still need more times to fine tune. 3 more yrs needed, 5 more yrs needed? or 10 more?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Every engine encountered teething problem when they first introduced even the fame F100 that power early J 16


Comparison with the west is completely unfair. The west has 70 years to perfect the Gas Turbine plus there are cross fertilization between the pioneer engine of England and GE/ In fact Rolls Royce transfer the blue print of first gas turbine to GE. Check this excellent article on Gas Turbine
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


China completely missed the incubation period of Gas Turbine from 1950 to 1990. And for years the defense budget was starved from period of 1980 to 1980 .Heck University doesn't even resume teaching until 1989.

Not only that, but China is subjected to technology embargo until today.Chinese engineer or scientist is barred from attending technical conference relating to the strategic technology. No technology transfer whatsoever. The Chinese have to reinvent every progress in Gas turbine alone. with no civilian aerospace industry to speak of It is not an easy job with no pool of experience technician or engineers to draw from

What they have achieved so far is remarkable and compress the development of Gas turbine from 80 years to 30 years.Compare to F100 they have fewer problem and fatality check the record of early F16 accident just google it . No J11B is falling from the sky

So give China more time and they will increase the reliability of WS 10A. So all the snipping and condescending comment is unwarranted. It is too early to write off WS 10A as failure. In fact yesterday saw a new J11B with Taihang engine for PLAN regiments WS10A is alive and kicking

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The F100 engine was first tried in service with the F-15 Eagle. The Air Force had hoped that the F100 engine would be a mature and reliable powerplant by the time that the F-16 was ready to enter service. However, there were a protracted series of teething troubles with the F100 powerplants of the F-15, compounded by labor problems at two of the major subcontractors. Initially, the Air Force had grossly underestimated the number of engine powercycles per sortie, since they had not realized how much the F-15 Eagle's maneuvering capabilities would result in abrupt changes in throttle setting. This caused unexpectedly high wear and tear on the engine, resulting in frequent failures of key engine components such as first-stage turbine blades. Most of these problems could be corrected by more careful maintenance and closer attention to quality control during manufacturing of engine components. Nevertheless, by the end of 1979, the Air Force was being forced to accept engineless F-15 airframes until the problems could be cleared up.

However, the most serious problem with the F100 in the F-15 was with stagnation stalling. Since the compressor blades of a jet engine are airfoil sections, they can stall if the angle at which the airflow strikes them exceeds a critical value, cutting off airflow into the combustion chamber which results in a sudden loss of thrust. Such an event is called a stagnation stall. Stagnation stalls most often occurred during high angle-of-attack maneuvers, and they usually resulted in abrupt interruptions of the flow of air through the compressor. This caused the engine core to lose speed, and the turbine to overheat. If this condition was not quickly corrected, damage to the turbine could take place or a fire could occur.

Last edited by Hendrik_2000; 07-21-2013 at 01:50 PM.
Again, we can use the f100 engine as an analogue. It took about 7 years for them to introduce the f100-200 as a replacement.
 
Last edited:

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
Why China didn't go after Soviet's engine technology when Soviet was collapsing during late early 90s.

I heard China gathered a whole of bunch Soviet Scientists and brought them to China when it was collapsed.

Pretty much everything was up for Fire Sale during that collapse.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
You cannot use that 7 yrs as analogy because WS10A is way past overdued. It was introduced since 2001, it's been more than 12 yrs already.


Here's from global security.org

About 2001 to 2002, WS-10 began the flight testing with Su-27 (J-11). In 2003, PLA Daily, official newspaper of PLA, had a report about WS-10 engine. It said: ?ur new Turbofan engine is being tested on China's new fighter (J-11) the fighter is equipped with two different engines, one is made by China, the other is from foreign country. This is the main evidence that WS-10 had been on critical developing stage since 2000.
=================================================================

So, 12 yrs has passed and still need more times to fine tune. 3 more yrs needed, 5 more yrs needed? or 10 more?
I in fact can. The ws-10 wasn't certified until 2006 and was never put into production to my knowledge. The ws-10a, assuming that's what we're seeing on the j-11b, was put into production in 2008 or 2009. The timeline I used for the f100 was when it went into production. Only after production and adoption can you start working out the kinks.
 

TyroneG

Banned Idiot
I in fact can. The ws-10 wasn't certified until 2006 and was never put into production to my knowledge. The ws-10a, assuming that's what we're seeing on the j-11b, was put into production in 2008 or 2009. The timeline I used for the f100 was when it went into production. Only after production and adoption can you start working out the kinks.

Give you the benefit the doubt. If you use that analogy, you would predict by 2015 (that's bout 7 yrs), WS10A would completely replace AL31F was the main engine?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Give you the benefit the doubt. If you use that analogy, you would predict by 2015 (that's bout 7 yrs), WS10A would completely replace AL31F was the main engine?

It may not necessarily replace the al-31 because there are other variables to adoption like price and production capacity, but we should see progress in its reliability, maybe through new variants. Note I'm not necessarily saying the ws-10 will be trouble free within 7 years, just that how strong China's jet engine sector is and how successful their future projects will be shouldn't be measured by whether one design will continue to have issues.

Such an overly simplistic measure for success ignores all the things that have had to go right for China to get as far as it has.
 
Top