Chinese Engine Development

Engineer said:

There is no gap in tphuang's theory.


Simple, since the primary purpose of WS-10A is not to replace Al-31s. The primary purpose of WS-10A is to enable China to achieve total independence in fighter production.



These are the same questions, so I will merge them and give you one answer. Aircraft which uses Al-31 cannot use WS-10A because they are two different engine types. It is that simple.

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Chinese Ministry of Defense acquired 140 AL-31F engines through intermediary of Rosoboronexport in early 2012, Lenta.ru reports with reference to Vedomosti.

China acquired 150 AL-31F engines in 2011 for Su-27 fighters delivered earlier to this country and the Chinese copies of Su-27 – J-11 aircraft. The Chinese party has also purchased 123 AL-31FN engines for J-10 jets



total =410 engines in less than a year

Other jet engines

There doesn't seem to be a dedicated thread for engines other than WS10a, so I'm asking this here:

Are there any more details on the new Minshan engine being developed for the L-15? Details like who's building it, is it based on the AI-225 engine, designed with a foreign partner (such as Eurojet, because the blades kind of resemble the Eurojet EJ200's blades), corporate/industrial espionage (again, because the blades kind of resembles the EJ200's), totally indigenous or all/some of the above? Is its alpha-numerical designation the WS-12?

Also are there any more details on the WS-13?

¦^��: Other jet engines

Curious George said:

There doesn't seem to be a dedicated thread for engines other than WS10a, so I'm asking this here:

Are there any more details on the new Minshan engine being developed for the L-15? Details like who's building it, is it based on the AI-225 engine, designed with a foreign partner (such as Eurojet, because the blades kind of resemble the Eurojet EJ200's blades), corporate/industrial espionage (again, because the blades kind of resembles the EJ200's), totally indigenous or all/some of the above? Is its alpha-numerical designation the WS-12?

Also are there any more details on the WS-13?

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I'm sorry... aren't all blades the same basic shape? So if a car has wheels, and another new car has wheels, can I suspect the second car of being a copy of the first?

MiG-29 said:

Chinese Ministry of Defense acquired 140 AL-31F engines through intermediary of Rosoboronexport in early 2012, Lenta.ru reports with reference to Vedomosti.

China acquired 150 AL-31F engines in 2011 for Su-27 fighters delivered earlier to this country and the Chinese copies of Su-27 – J-11 aircraft. The Chinese party has also purchased 123 AL-31FN engines for J-10 jets

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total =410 engines in less than a year

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123 AL-31FN engines. No other purchased engine could go on new built fighters, which indicates China has lost much dependency on Russian engines.

¦^��: Re: Ws10a

MiG-29 said:

Chinese Ministry of Defense acquired 140 AL-31F engines through intermediary of Rosoboronexport in early 2012, Lenta.ru reports with reference to Vedomosti.

China acquired 150 AL-31F engines in 2011 for Su-27 fighters delivered earlier to this country and the Chinese copies of Su-27 ¡V J-11 aircraft. The Chinese party has also purchased 123 AL-31FN engines for J-10 jets

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

total =410 engines in less than a year

Click to expand...

China buys Russians engines... ok? What's your point?

Re: ¦^��: Other jet engines

jobjed said:

I'm sorry... aren't all blades the same basic shape? So if a car has wheels, and another new car has wheels, can I suspect the second car of being a copy of the first?

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Some blades look different and others look similar, for example here's the Snecma M88, Eurojet EJ200 and Minshan engines: Notice how the Snecma blades are "straight", while the EJ200 and Minshan are curved? If Eurojet didn't provide some sort of assistance then one conclusion regarding the similarities between the two blade designs are the infamous Chinese "hacking" cases that have been much talked about in the western media. The other conclusion being that the Chinese came upon the design independently through their own research, (although they might have taken some design cues from detailed photos of the EJ200 that have been published over the years, as let's face it, these designers don't live in a sealed bubble, so they must have at least looked at one picture).

Re: ¦^��: Other jet engines

Curious George said:

Some blades look different and others look similar, for example here's the Snecma M88, Eurojet EJ200 and Minshan engines: Notice how the Snecma blades are "straight", while the EJ200 and Minshan are curved? If Eurojet didn't provide some sort of assistance then one conclusion regarding the similarities between the two blade designs are the infamous Chinese "hacking" cases that have been much talked about in the western media. The other conclusion being that the Chinese came upon the design independently through their own research, (although they might have taken some design cues from detailed photos of the EJ200 that have been published over the years, as let's face it, these designers don't live in a sealed bubble, so they must have at least looked at one picture).

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one can get all the info from aviation week and technology.

Re: ¦^��: Other jet engines

Curious George said:

Some blades look different and others look similar, for example here's the Snecma M88, Eurojet EJ200 and Minshan engines: Notice how the Snecma blades are "straight", while the EJ200 and Minshan are curved? If Eurojet didn't provide some sort of assistance then one conclusion regarding the similarities between the two blade designs are the infamous Chinese "hacking" cases that have been much talked about in the western media. The other conclusion being that the Chinese came upon the design independently through their own research, (although they might have taken some design cues from detailed photos of the EJ200 that have been published over the years, as let's face it, these designers don't live in a sealed bubble, so they must have at least looked at one picture).

Click to expand...

The curvature is different if you look carefully, also they have different number of blades, as well as overall engine configuration, thrust class, etc. Therefore it is quite silly to suggest Minshan may have benefited from EJ200 espionage just because they both uses curved blades instead of inlet guide vanes and straighter blades. Alternatively, if Minshan did use guide vanes and straighter blades, does this mean it was the result of M88/117S/F119 espionage? You see, thinking like this gets you nowhere.

Re: ¦^��: Other jet engines

superdog said:

The curvature is different if you look carefully, also they have different number of blades, as well as overall engine configuration, thrust class, etc. Therefore it is quite silly to suggest Minshan may have benefited from EJ200 espionage just because they both uses curved blades instead of inlet guide vanes and straighter blades. Alternatively, if Minshan did use guide vanes and straighter blades, does this mean it was the result of M88/117S/F119 espionage? You see, thinking like this gets you nowhere.

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I don't really care whether the Minshan or any other engine was developed indigeniously or stolen/copied, I'm only after background details of its development, like how we know WS10 was developed from CFM56 core. Was Minshan developed from the Russian AI-225 core, through alleged hacking activities, through indigenous research or all/some of the above? What is the alpha-numerical designation for the Minshan (ie is it WS-12?). What are the details. Same goes for WS-13 that is under development.

Re: ¦^��: Other jet engines

Curious George said:

I don't really care whether the Minshan or any other engine was developed indigeniously or stolen/copied, I'm only after background details of its development, like how we know WS10 was developed from CFM56 core. Was Minshan developed from the Russian AI-225 core, through alleged hacking activities, through indigenous research or all/some of the above? What is the alpha-numerical designation for the Minshan (ie is it WS-12?). What are the details. Same goes for WS-13 that is under development.

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Let's put it this way... if you give the Roman empire a full blueprint of a nuclear submarine with all the technical detail, what are the chances they can reproduce it?

But it is funny when people reads of Chinese had hacked some computer, all they know is just from hacking alone, China is able to achieve all those technological accomplishments.

If it were that easy, why don't everyone else do it? Why don't the Africans do it? Why don't Middle East do it? Why don't Latin America do it?

Because they don't have the technological capability like China do, which had been developed with decades of experience and a solid technological base.

So that answers your question... no this engine is probably NOT from pure Chinese hacking and stealing, most it are produced from the Chinese engineers themselves, but does it take inspiration from existing product? Of course, just like all technology are build upon existing technologies. But for some reason, aka "free media" have 100% linked the word China with stealing. The same way they linked Saddam Hassan with 9/11.