Chinese Engine Development

K

kyanges

Junior Member
jackliu said:
You must be naive, the media tells people what they want to hear, not providing them real facts and evidence so that people know what is real or not.

Right now the viral thing is "Chinese only know how to copy". Anyone else that says anything that break that perception will not get any audience.

This is how "free media" works in this country, just like how the "free media" convinced over 90% of the American Iraq was an IMMINENT danger to USA.
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No, I was being a little more specific than that. There is now proof that a high quality engine is in production. Disproving the accusation that it was copied is a different matter.

On that note, the "viral thing" before the J-20 was that China was 20 years away from a stealth fighter. That perception has largely been changed, while the accusations of copying persist. The same can go with engines. There will always be the copy critics, but the engines they claim don't exist would be undeniable now that there's images and whatnot everywhere.
 
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jackliu

Banned Idiot
kyanges said:
No, I was being a little more specific than that. There is now proof that a high quality engine is in production. Disproving the accusation that it was copied is a different matter.

On that note, the "viral thing" before the J-20 was that China was 20 years away from a stealth fighter. That perception has largely been changed, while the accusations of copying persist.
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I'm talking about overall theme of China's perception and it is trends. I know this very well

From late 1990s-2004, perception of China is a dirty poor 3rd world nation in deep poverty.

From 2000-2006, perception of China is mainly base on high value of RMB, as a result this is when you saw RMB raise from 8.5 to 6.3 (One of the reason Romney lost by saying he will grand China currency manipulator on day one, this made him look like an extremists, he was behind the theme... poor little guy)

From 2008-now, perception of China is nation full of cheater and pirates with no ability to innovation.

During all of this period, you can argue all 3 perception persists, but only one dominate perception that is persistent in people's mind at once, just like 5 years ago RMB overvalue was the dominate theme, now the copycat is the current dominate theme. However the theme of China being a dirt poor nation is mostly gone, this is in the process of being replaced by a ruthless China that does evil all over the world, and it is in danger of replacing the democratic peaceful US power.

But one theme that has not changed from early 1990s to now is that China is a nation of 0 freedom, where people can get lock up any second on the street by the government for whatever evil purposes they want. And they are a nation full of slave labor that exploits it is people to produce items that has been stolen from other nations. As for J-20, I don't consider that is a theme, that is just a very small thing that few people cares, however it very much play into the overall theme of China is a copycat for sure.

And no, any news that contradict the current theme will not be tolerated in the "free media", at best you can hope for the "free media" to discovery a new theme to replace the current copycat theme. And judging by the trend, this current theme is still new, so I think the next new theme will be here at earliest in 2015, as to what that will be? No idea, but it will happen.
 
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tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
MiG-29 said:
Look this is why i do not understand here your explanation.

So China bought from 2011 to 2012 410 engines right?
Now you are saying what is bad with buying replacements?

From the point of view of Saturn? well nothing, actually Saturn will re-engine half of the Chinese fleet of J-10s and J-11s only with those engines.

I want to ask did China build the WS-10 as an engine that could replace Al-31?

Why the WS-10 is being fitted to J-10 and J-11s?

So what basicly i understand from your explanation is China buys Al-31s because those jets can not be re-engined with WS-10
So then Saturn will re-engine all those jets?
So most of Chinese jets will need Al-31s. since all have Al-31 in exception of few test aircraft.

The theory you are telling is very extrange to tackle a reality.


Most pleople here says WS-10 is designed to power J-11B and J-10B, so do you think honestly in order to get rid of Russian dependance in engines you will design a engine that will not allow you to be adapt it to old airframes?

Specially since here many claim China even Perfected the Al-31 improving it.

In my opinion most of those Chinese airframes are new mostly built in the 2002-2011 time period specially J-10s and J-11s and even Su-30s.


So most of those airframes will be operating in 2020 at least, so what basicly you are saying is China never got independent in terms of that fleet`s engines so only new build J-10Bs and J-11Bs will get WS-10s but most of all the airframes will be re-engine by Saturn`s Al-31s.


What people here do not see is as China has moved from all copies of MiG-21 engines to WS-10 that according to Saturn`s designer Victor Chepkin, (designer of engines like 117, Al-41 and many others such as D-30F6 that powers MiG-31) the WS-10 incorporates up to 70% of Al-31 technologies, is Russia and the US also moved from their original AL-31 and F-100s.
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Today Russia builds Al-31s with higher thrust M2 already has a 14500kg of thrust and M1 is also more powerful than WS-10

In fact all those new 140 Al-31s that China bought in 2012 are thought to be the same engines used on Su-27SM and to be more powerful than the original engines that powered the Su-27 sold to China in the first decade of the 21st century.


I do not know if you agree or not but according to Chepkin, China will catch up eventually with Russia and the US, but at least for now they have not, perhaps in 2018 China will close the gap, perhaps in 2015 China will only power new aircraft with WS-10 or even WS-13 and WS-15, but the reality now is China is going to re-engine half of its fleet with russian engines if they will re-engine, however China bought close to 1000 Al-31s acoording to CEO of Salut, Vladislav Masalov
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How do you have so much free time? It's amazing that you can continue to write this much post.

Anyhow, what I'm saying seems to be pretty obvious. I don't know why you have such hard time understanding it. The old jets are using AL-31 series and the new jets are using Taihang series. What I'm saying is pretty obvious right? Is it that hard to understand?

It's not called re-engine if you are replacing it with the same engine, which is what they are doing. Re-engine would be replacing a jet with AL-31 with Taihang.

Do you really need to keep polluting this threads with the same claim. Nobody is disagreeing with you that China has purchased a lot of AL-31 and have bought more AL-31 recently.

As for J-10B, they have separate prototypes flying with AL-31FN and WS-10A, so they should be able to use both when in service. It took them a lot of testing flying with both engines before they are certified. You are looking at at least a couple of years of flight testing with both. J-10A is another story, since they have always been built with AL-31FN in mind. They do have prototypes with WS-10A, but since AL-31FN works pretty well, I don't see why they need to engine or re-engine with WS-10A when J-10A project was already almost finished.


Also, you can really compare Russia to US. China is behind both, but Russia is far behind US.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Does anyone know what will happen to the first batch of J-10 that uses the AL-31 engines or how long the PLAAF will continue to use them, since the WS-10 engines will continue to mature and developed?
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
Equation said:
Does anyone know what will happen to the first batch of J-10 that uses the AL-31 engines or how long the PLAAF will continue to use them, since the WS-10 engines will continue to mature and developed?
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I believe J-10A will continue to use AL-31FN engines as long as Russia are willing to support at a reasonable prices. Its a great sources of income from Salyut. Why would they kill this golden goose?

The only thing will changes is WS-10A continue to mature and production cost per unit dramatically cut down so much that its feasible to save large amount of money turning to domestic supply rather than buying AL-31FN which I predict will not happen in near future.
 
J

jackliu

Banned Idiot
Lion said:
I believe J-10A will continue to use AL-31FN engines as long as Russia are willing to support at a reasonable prices. Its a great sources of income from Salyut. Why would they kill this golden goose?

The only thing will changes is WS-10A continue to mature and production cost per unit dramatically cut down so much that its feasible to save large amount of money turning to domestic supply rather than buying AL-31FN which I predict will not happen in near future.
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But as soon as J-10B start mass production, I think J-10A would cease. So anymore AL-31FN they purchase would be spare engines for the existing fleet.

Unless the first few batch of J-10B still uses AL-31FN.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
sometimes im quite surprised mig is still in this forum, or that we havent build a special "ignore" button just for him. if SDF needs donation to build this function, please do so. i'll definitely love to chip in
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
tphuang said:
How do you have so much free time? It's amazing that you can continue to write this much post.

Anyhow, what I'm saying seems to be pretty obvious. I don't know why you have such hard time understanding it. The old jets are using AL-31 series and the new jets are using Taihang series. What I'm saying is pretty obvious right? Is it that hard to understand?

It's not called re-engine if you are replacing it with the same engine, which is what they are doing. Re-engine would be replacing a jet with AL-31 with Taihang.

Do you really need to keep polluting this threads with the same claim. Nobody is disagreeing with you that China has purchased a lot of AL-31 and have bought more AL-31 recently.

As for J-10B, they have separate prototypes flying with AL-31FN and WS-10A, so they should be able to use both when in service. It took them a lot of testing flying with both engines before they are certified. You are looking at at least a couple of years of flight testing with both. J-10A is another story, since they have always been built with AL-31FN in mind. They do have prototypes with WS-10A, but since AL-31FN works pretty well, I don't see why they need to engine or re-engine with WS-10A when J-10A project was already almost finished.


Also, you can really compare Russia to US. China is behind both, but Russia is far behind US.
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I understand perfectly your position, however i do not think that your explanation is accurate, first because i pointed out J-10B as well J-11B can use both Al-31 as the WS-10 therefore i do not think the Chinese designed the WS-10 only for J-10B because they can interchange Al-31 and WS-10 in the same airframe which means J-10As can be re-engined with WS-10s.

Eventually China will perfect the WS-10, perhaps a few years from now, but the reason in my opinion the Chinese still buy Al-31 is simply modern Al-31 have better reliability than WS-10.

Will WS-10 fix all the issues and shortcomings it has? i think so, they will fix it but i do not think they have fix them.

You can keep your opinion, but as Flateric posted Al-31 is still used due to reliability, therefore i do not agree that WS-10 is only for J-10s or J-11Bs.
 
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jobjed

Captain
¦^��: Re: Ws10a

MiG-29 said:
I understand perfectly your position, however i do not think that your explanation is accurate, first because i pointed out J-10B as well J-11B can use both Al-31 as the WS-10 therefore i do not think the Chinese designed the WS-10 only for J-10B because they can interchange Al-31 and WS-10 in the same airframe which means J-10As can be re-engined with WS-10s.

Eventually China will perfect the WS-10, perhaps a few years from now, but the reason in my opinion the Chinese still buy Al-31 is simply modern Al-31 have better reliability than WS-10.

Will WS-10 fix all the issues and shortcomings it has? i think so, they will fix it but i do not think they have fix them.

You can keep your opinion, but as Flateric posted Al-31 is still used due to reliability, therefore i do not agree that WS-10 is only for J-10s or J-11Bs.
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It costs more to refit WS-10's in the J-10A's that have already been built than to buy AL-31's. What's the point of refitting WS-10's to old airframes when buying AL-31's is cheaper anyway? The PLAAF is not so egocentric as to refit WS-10's to old airframes simply for the sake of show. To put it simply for you, it cost MORE to refit WS-10's on J-10A and J-11A's than to buy AL-31's to replace worn out AL-31's. There, have I made it simple enough for you?
 
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