Chinese Engine Development

Engineer said:

That does not conflict with lying.

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that's the bottom line of problem, you have made all these accusations in one fell swoop :

1. Russian news and sources are all but trustworthy on Chinese matters
2. Russian aerospace industry and officials are actively spreading false information to promote superiority over Chinese counterpart
3. Russians are pathological liars

Not only will we lose respect with Russian readers or contributors like flateric with this, but it is a violation of our impartiality and integrity as a forum.
We might as well start openly bashing Russians, or Indians instead.

I simply suggest we tone down such accusations, and just brand it as inaccurate, or unverified, or just plain modest disagreement.

It is no better than calling China copycat, and i believe we are above that

Re: ¦^��: Other jet engines

Curious George said:

I don't really care whether the Minshan or any other engine was developed indigeniously or stolen/copied, I'm only after background details of its development, like how we know WS10 was developed from CFM56 core. Was Minshan developed from the Russian AI-225 core, through alleged hacking activities, through indigenous research or all/some of the above? What is the alpha-numerical designation for the Minshan (ie is it WS-12?). What are the details. Same goes for WS-13 that is under development.

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Minshan was featured in a graph showing various turbofans under development by China, not a long ago.

There is simply no telling if there is any similarity between Minshan with any contemporary engines out there, unless we have detailed specs.

Your pictures do not show the combustion stages, the turbine configs, or any hard data like thrust, fuel consumption, etc. And i think comparison with EJ200 is abit off, as it is quite clear they belong in different classes.

MiG-29 said:

Chinese Ministry of Defense acquired 140 AL-31F engines through intermediary of Rosoboronexport in early 2012, Lenta.ru reports with reference to Vedomosti.

China acquired 150 AL-31F engines in 2011 for Su-27 fighters delivered earlier to this country and the Chinese copies of Su-27 – J-11 aircraft. The Chinese party has also purchased 123 AL-31FN engines for J-10 jets

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total =410 engines in less than a year

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I don't know what your point is. J-10 uses AL-31FN, Su-27/Su-30s use AL-31F and J-11As use AL-31F. J-11A are not copies, they are licensed production. They were built to use AL-31F, what's wrong with getting replacements for that?

MiG-29 said:

Your theory has a few gaps

Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov

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По оценке Масалова, общее количество поставленных Китаю двигателей уже приблизилось к тысяче единиц. Для обслуживания силовых установок, "Салют

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First let us do math. Acccording to Saturn China has bought more than 1000 Al-31 engines.

China has Su-27s that were bought directly from Russia, so here the engines were not bought separately.

So half of China`s fleet of Su-27s were bought directly from Russia around 150 were directly bought from Russia with their set of Al-31s included.

So those 1000+ engines are replacements and do not include the engines on Su-30MKK and Su-27s bought directly from Russia.

So now tell me How many Su-27s/J-11 are in China`s fleet?

How many J-10s?


So what you are saying is China has more Al-31s than jets obviously those extra engines are either for brand new aircraft or replacing each and every Su-27/Su-30/J-11 with a pair of Al-31s and J-10 with a brand new engine.


So question number one


If WS-10 was designed for replacing Al-31s why is not replacing it on old jets? i mean why it can not be retro-fitted into jets using Al-31s?


Question number two

Why old Su-27s bough directly from Russia and J-11 made in China will get a pair each one of brand new Al-31s and all J-10s will get a brand new Al-31?

Question number three if Al-31 has so bad quality why buy it and do not replace it with WS-10s?

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There are 100 Su-30s + 78 SU-27SK/UBKs, 95 J-11As, 260+ J-10s and first batch of J-11B (let's say 20) all using AL-31F/N. So you have need from 260 single engines aircraft and close to 300 double engined aircraft. If they use no replacements, that would be at least 860 AL-31F/N. If they use one set of replacements, that's 1720 engines. On top of that, you have need for additional spares and since they have short service life, you need even might need 2 or more replacements over the lifetime for some of these engines.

You can't just replace with WS-10. It's not exactly the same size or weight distribution or thrust. You have to fit them, update the flight control software and such, correct the flaws. And since a lot of these are for Russian built flankers, I don't know how hard it would even be to modify them. I suppose if China really develops bad relationship with Russia and AL-31F are not available, then it would figure out a way to do it.

At present time, AL-31F have short service life, but China already has a lot of experience using it, have no problem with its performance and can do all the MRO work inside the country. Why would they not keep on purchasing it as replacements.

And as far as I'm concerned, if future variants of AL-31FN can outperform FWS-10A, then China should continue to buy it for J-10B.


For what it's worth, this is what I got a while go regarding MTBO for FWS-10. The average time seems to be around 500 to 550 hours. Also, there seems to be a lot more Taihang in there than I expected (around 440), so I'm not sure what's going on.

Can someone clarify what is meant by an "engine core"? eg. the WS-10 being developed form the CFM56 "core".

What does a "core" of an engine entail, and what sort of implications are there to the term?

tphuang said:

I don't know what your point is. J-10 uses AL-31FN, Su-27/Su-30s use AL-31F and J-11As use AL-31F. J-11A are not copies, they are licensed production. They were built to use AL-31F, what's wrong with getting replacements for that?



There are 100 Su-30s + 78 SU-27SK/UBKs, 95 J-11As, 260+ J-10s and first batch of J-11B (let's say 20) all using AL-31F/N. So you have need from 260 single engines aircraft and close to 300 double engined aircraft. If they use no replacements, that would be at least 860 AL-31F/N. If they use one set of replacements, that's 1720 engines. On top of that, you have need for additional spares and since they have short service life, you need even might need 2 or more replacements over the lifetime for some of these engines.

You can't just replace with WS-10. It's not exactly the same size or weight distribution or thrust. You have to fit them, update the flight control software and such, correct the flaws. And since a lot of these are for Russian built flankers, I don't know how hard it would even be to modify them. I suppose if China really develops bad relationship with Russia and AL-31F are not available, then it would figure out a way to do it.

At present time, AL-31F have short service life, but China already has a lot of experience using it, have no problem with its performance and can do all the MRO work inside the country. Why would they not keep on purchasing it as replacements.

And as far as I'm concerned, if future variants of AL-31FN can outperform FWS-10A, then China should continue to buy it for J-10B.


For what it's worth, this is what I got a while go regarding MTBO for FWS-10. The average time seems to be around 500 to 550 hours. Also, there seems to be a lot more Taihang in there than I expected (around 440), so I'm not sure what's going on.

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Look this is why i do not understand here your explanation.

So China bought from 2011 to 2012 410 engines right?
Now you are saying what is bad with buying replacements?

From the point of view of Saturn? well nothing, actually Saturn will re-engine half of the Chinese fleet of J-10s and J-11s only with those engines.

I want to ask did China build the WS-10 as an engine that could replace Al-31?

Why the WS-10 is being fitted to J-10 and J-11s?

So what basicly i understand from your explanation is China buys Al-31s because those jets can not be re-engined with WS-10
So then Saturn will re-engine all those jets?
So most of Chinese jets will need Al-31s. since all have Al-31 in exception of few test aircraft.

The theory you are telling is very extrange to tackle a reality.


Most pleople here says WS-10 is designed to power J-11B and J-10B, so do you think honestly in order to get rid of Russian dependance in engines you will design a engine that will not allow you to be adapt it to old airframes?

Specially since here many claim China even Perfected the Al-31 improving it.

In my opinion most of those Chinese airframes are new mostly built in the 2002-2011 time period specially J-10s and J-11s and even Su-30s.


So most of those airframes will be operating in 2020 at least, so what basicly you are saying is China never got independent in terms of that fleet`s engines so only new build J-10Bs and J-11Bs will get WS-10s but most of all the airframes will be re-engine by Saturn`s Al-31s.


What people here do not see is as China has moved from all copies of MiG-21 engines to WS-10 that according to Saturn`s designer Victor Chepkin, (designer of engines like 117, Al-41 and many others such as D-30F6 that powers MiG-31) the WS-10 incorporates up to 70% of Al-31 technologies, is Russia and the US also moved from their original AL-31 and F-100s.

Today Russia builds Al-31s with higher thrust M2 already has a 14500kg of thrust and M1 is also more powerful than WS-10

In fact all those new 140 Al-31s that China bought in 2012 are thought to be the same engines used on Su-27SM and to be more powerful than the original engines that powered the Su-27 sold to China in the first decade of the 21st century.


I do not know if you agree or not but according to Chepkin, China will catch up eventually with Russia and the US, but at least for now they have not, perhaps in 2018 China will close the gap, perhaps in 2015 China will only power new aircraft with WS-10 or even WS-13 and WS-15, but the reality now is China is going to re-engine half of its fleet with russian engines if they will re-engine, however China bought close to 1000 Al-31s acoording to CEO of Salut, Vladislav Masalov

MiG-29 said:

Look this is why i do not understand here your explanation.

So China bought from 2011 to 2012 410 engines right?
Now you are saying what is bad with buying replacements?

From the point of view of Saturn? well nothing, actually Saturn will re-engine half of the Chinese fleet of J-10s and J-11s only with those engines.

I want to ask did China build the WS-10 as an engine that could replace Al-31?

Why the WS-10 is being fitted to J-10 and J-11s?

So what basicly i understand from your explanation is China buys Al-31s because those jets can not be re-engine with WS-10
So then Saturn will re-engine all those jets?
So most of Chinese jets will need Al-31s. since all have Al-31 in exception of few test aircraft.

The theory you are telling is very extrange to tackle a reality.


Most pleople here says WS-10 is designed to power J-11B and J-10B, so do you think honestly in order to get rid of Russian dependance in engines you will design a engine that will not allow you to be adapt it to old airframes?

Specially since here many claim China even Perfected the Al-31 improving it.

In my opinion most Chinese airframes are new most build in the 2002-2011 time period specially J-10s and J-11s and even Su-30s.


So most those airframes will be operating in 2020 at least, so what basicly you are saying is China never got independent in terms of that fleet engines so only new build J-10Bs and J-11Bs will get WS-10s but most of all the airframes will be re-engine by Saturn`s Al-31s.


What people here do not see is as China has moved from all copies of MiG-21 engines to WS-10 that according to Saturn`s designer Victor Chepkin, (designer of engines like 117, Al-41 and many others ) the WS-10 incorporates up to 70% of Al-31 technologies, is Russia and the US also moved from their original AL-31 and F-100s.

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Today Russia builds Al-31s with higher thrust M2 already has a 14500kg of thrust and M1 is also more powerful than WS-10

In fact all those new 140 Al-31s are thought to be the same engines used on Su-27SM.

To be more powerful than the original engines that powered the Su-27 sold to China in the first decade of the 21st century.


I do not know if you agree or not but according to Chepkin, China will catch up eventually with Russia and the US, but at least for now they have not, perhaps in 2018 China will close the gap, perhaps in 2015 China will only power new aircraft with WS-10 or even WS-13 and WS-15, but the reality now is China is going to re-engine half of its fleet with russian engines if they will re-engine, however China bought close to 1000 Al-31s acoording to CEO of Salut, Vladislav Masalov

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Yes, you are correct, more than half of China's existing 4th gen aircraft are powered by AL-31. And look like it will continue to be that way in the future.

BUT for all new aircraft being produced, they will all be using WS-10. And no, China will not power their aircraft with their own engine in 2015. J-11B which was went into service in 2007 are all using WS-10A right now.

And the same thing goes for J-10B, J-20 and J-31 and everything else in the far future.

So you can say China still depends on Russia for it is existing jets, FOR NOW, Russia should be happy for this business, because in a few years if Russian air force and other export order don't pick the slack they might have to layoff a lot of people.

Other have said that if for some reason if Russia decide to play rough and stop export all engines to China, it still don't mean China is doomed, because they can in theory work on refit all AL-31 with WS-10, but it will take a lot of resources to do it. Resources that would be working on developing new engines, but nothing they can't deal with.

jackliu said:

Yes, you are correct, more than half of China's existing 4th gen aircraft are powered by AL-31. And look like it will continue to be that way in the future.

BUT for all new aircraft being produced, they will all be using WS-10. And no, China will not power their aircraft with their own engine in 2015. J-11B which was went into service in 2007 are all using WS-10A right now.

And the same thing goes for J-10B, J-20 and J-31 and everything else in the far future.

So you can say China still depends on Russia for it is existing jets, FOR NOW, Russia should be happy for this business, because in a few years if Russian air force and other export order don't pick the slack they might have to layoff a lot of people.

Other have said that if for some reason if Russia decide to play rough and stop export all engines to China, it still don't mean China is doomed, because they can in theory work on refit all AL-31 with WS-10, but it will take a lot of resources to do it. Resources that would be working on developing new engines, but nothing they can't deal with.

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Look all what you are saying does not make sense.


J-10 and J-10B most be almost identical in engine design simply because there are pictures of Ws-10 and AL-31 powering J-10B





So tell me how come J-10B can take both Al-31 and WS-10s?

The first prototype of the improved J-10B fighter was powered by a Russian Saturn AL-31FN turbofan engines and it flew for the first time on December 23, 2008. The J-10B fighter jet uses a chin mounted Diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) to reduce weight and its overall frontal Radar cross section (RCS).

logic very logic

MiG-29 said:

Look all what you are saying does not make sense.


J-10 and J-10B most be almost identical in engine design simply because there are pictures of Ws-10 and AL-31 powering J-10B

So tell me how come J-10B can take both Al-31 and WS-10s?

The first prototype of the improved J-10B fighter was powered by a Russian Saturn AL-31FN turbofan engines and it flew for the first time on December 23, 2008. The J-10B fighter jet uses a chin mounted Diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) to reduce weight and its overall frontal Radar cross section (RCS).

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logic very logic

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There is more than 1 prototypes of J-10B, some uses AL-31, some uses WS-10.

I think it is because AL-31 was chosen as a backup in case WS-10 is not mature enough.

And it is very possible that the first batch of J-10B will be using AL-31. But don't count on that forever, because unlike J-10A, J-10B is designed from ground up with 2 possible engines, even if the fist batch uses AL-31, does not mean the later batch will continue to use it.

Make sense now?

Here is another article from that same website you linked showing J-10B with WS-10 fitted.

jackliu said:

There is more than 1 prototypes of J-10B, some uses AL-31, some uses WS-10.

I think it is because AL-31 was chosen as a backup in case WS-10 is not mature enough.

And it is very possible that the first batch of J-10B will be using AL-31. But don't count on that forever, because unlike J-10A, J-10B is designed from ground up with 2 possible engines, even if the fist batch uses AL-31, does not mean the later batch will continue to use it.

Make sense now?

Here is another article from that same website you linked showing J-10B with WS-10 fitted.

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Look i agree with you that China will eventually only use WS-10s once the engine is perfected, no disagreement in that. but now i do not think is ready, why?

J-11B and J-10B can use Al-31 and WS-10s, so it means J-10As can also do it.

However WS-10 must have still some issues that has forced China to buy more Al-31, specially since the new Al-31 recently bought have more thrust and are more reliable.

The answer to all this discussion is while WS-10 might be comparable to Al-31s build in the 1980s, it is not now as capable to new Al-31M2s or 117S engines

MiG-29 said:

Look i agree with you that China will eventually only use WS-10s once the engine is perfected, no disagreement in that. but now i do not think is ready, why?

J-11B and J-10B can use Al-31 and WS-10s, so it means J-10As can also do it.

However WS-10 must have still some issues that has forced China to buy more Al-31, specially since the new Al-31 recently bought have more thrust and are more reliable.

The answer to all this discussion is while WS-10 might be comparable to Al-31s build in the 1980s, it is not now as capable to new Al-31M2s or 117S engines

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I don't understand what do you mean, I agree WS-10 is now inferior than AL-31. But it does NOT mean it will always be inferior in the near future. And the difference between AL-31 and WS-10 is not large enough for China to abandon WS-10 and only use AL-31 imported from Russia.

And the trend is very clear to me that China's goal is to completely phase out AL-31 for all of it is future production jets.

This have nothing to do against Russia, I think there are 3 main reason they want to do this.

1. Self reliance. It is always not a good idea to depend your whole air force on another nation's production. What if something happened and Russia decide to stop selling, if China don't have it is own engines, their whole air force is good as nothing. I'm not saying Russia will do this, but we cannot rule that out from ever happening no matter how small the chance.

2. Exports, it is clear from http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-military-pictures/zhuhai-air-show-2012-a-6187.html that China is investing massively into their military program for both domestic use and for export. So how can you sell your jet to another nation when the most important part on that jet is not made in China? What if China's export is competing with Russia's export, and Russia would easily cut off the access to choke hold China's export. This is bad for business. And no nation will buy from China under a situation such as this. Because they need to receive favor from both China and Russia to buy them, and service them for many decades to come.

3. Someone have made a post on this forum that says, the only way to mass produce good engine on a consistent level is experience. That means you have to produce a lot of engine even if they have problems, only then can you find the problem and perfect the manufacturing process. Russia and USA did this in the 1980s. So if China only produce very few engine for testing and prototype, they will never be mature enough to face wide production. So that means even if China's WS-10 is inferior, that gives them more reason to produce it. Only from producing it, they can make it better.

So yes, in 5-10 years I won't be surprised China would have stop importing AL-31 from Russia all together. Just like how they have stopped importing complete systems like SU-30 all together. And yes that means it is possible for China to service their own AL-31 in China to make them operational and extend the service life. But if not, they can always keep importing AL-31, but only for existing legacy jets that was produced when WS-10 was not ready. So what I'm trying to say it, when compare to other engines, not good enough is not enough reason to not use it.