Chinese Engine Development

tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
flateric said:
for the God's sake, it wasn't me or even you who brought Su-35 here. someone just insists that all that Russian media writes on Sino-Russian military cooperation are plain lies. have you ever asked yourself a question where these rumors on Su-35 came from and why?

Theory that China wants Su-35S to borrow 117S is idiotic per se as 117S already had export passport back in 2006, even before 901 flew the first time, and can be sold separately
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you brought up the Su-35 topic in here. Anything further on it in this thread will be deleted. There is an existing topic on it. One of the most wasteful thread on SDF in my opinion, but if you do want to talk about it, please use that thread.
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
tphuang said:
There is no reason why China should try to do anything other than buying AL-31 to replace the ones in jets that already use them. AL-31 and WS-10A are clearly not the same engine, even if they are similar. I don't even know the cost attached to changing engines on these platforms to WS-10. It really doesn't make sense to do that. It's an indictment on Russian engines that China have to continue to buy them due to their short service life.
Click to expand...
Your theory has a few gaps

Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov
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По оценке Масалова, общее количество поставленных Китаю двигателей уже приблизилось к тысяче единиц. Для обслуживания силовых установок, "Салют

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First let us do math. Acccording to Saturn China has bought more than 1000 Al-31 engines.

China has Su-27s that were bought directly from Russia, so here the engines were not bought separately.

So half of China`s fleet of Su-27s were bought directly from Russia around 150 were directly bought from Russia with their set of Al-31s included.

So those 1000+ engines are replacements and do not include the engines on Su-30MKK and Su-27s bought directly from Russia.

So now tell me How many Su-27s/J-11 are in China`s fleet?

How many J-10s?


So what you are saying is China has more Al-31s than jets obviously those extra engines are either for brand new aircraft or replacing each and every Su-27/Su-30/J-11 with a pair of Al-31s and J-10 with a brand new engine.


So question number one


If WS-10 was designed for replacing Al-31s why is not replacing it on old jets? i mean why it can not be retro-fitted into jets using Al-31s?


Question number two

Why old Su-27s bough directly from Russia and J-11 made in China will get a pair each one of brand new Al-31s and all J-10s will get a brand new Al-31?

Question number three if Al-31 has so bad quality why buy it and do not replace it with WS-10s?
 
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L

Lion

Senior Member
flateric said:
for the God's sake, it wasn't me or even you who brought Su-35 here. someone just insists that all that Russian media writes on Sino-Russian military cooperation are plain lies. have you ever asked yourself a question where these rumors on Su-35 came from and why?

Theory that China wants Su-35S to borrow 117S is idiotic per se as 117S already had export passport back in 2006, even before 901 flew the first time, and can be sold separately
Click to expand...

Stop twisting with words . Nobody says sino russian military cooperation are lies. Buy chinese interested in su-35 is lies. Yes , there mught be discussion take place but its a one way traffic discussion. From all the sign i seen, its russian pushing the sales to china. Its all the while russian media talking about china wanted to purchase su-35 and its also russian representative doing all the work of flying to china trying to push thru the deal. That is precusely the thing we are looking for. End of the day, its the contract sign that matters, others are not important.
 
Hyperwarp

Hyperwarp

Captain
MiG-29 said:
...
So question number one
If WS-10 was designed for replacing Al-31s why is not replacing it on old jets? i mean why it can not be retro-fitted into jets using Al-31s?
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Maybe Cost of retrofitting (if it is possible to retrofit them in the 1st place). Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK/MK2, J-11/11A are ground-up for AL-31F. Only one J-11A flew with 2 WS-10. J-11B and their variants are built with WS-10 in mind. Only time there was a swap was the very 1st batch when the initial WS-10 had horrible reliability but at what cost I don't know. And when I say cost, I am not just referring to money. Plus, Maybe They cannot make enough WS-10? They just don't have the capacity?

MiG-29 said:
...
Question number two
Why old Su-27s bough directly from Russia and J-11 made in China will get a pair each one of brand new Al-31s and all J-10s will get a brand new Al-31?
Click to expand...

Because Russia considers Su-27SK/UBK, Su-30MKK/MK2, J-11/11A, FC-1, J-10, J-20 and many others legal products! They don't have a problem selling engines especially to CAC. But the J-11B and variants and even more so the J-15 by SAC is not considered legal. Therefore the Russians have no obligation to provide them with engines. J-11B, J-15, J-16 must fly with home grown engines because those product have been sanctioned. Now CAC does not have such issues. J-10/10A/10B, J-20, FC-1 all fly with Russian engines. J-20 engine by Salut produces 135-140 kN of thrust.

MiG-29 said:
...
Question number three if Al-31 has so bad quality why buy it and do not replace it with WS-10s?
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I don't know about the bad quality (considering the 1st batch of J-11B was re-engined with 2nd-hand AL-31), but lets assume its true for the moment. Why are they not replaced by WS-10? Well see response to question #1. They can't retrofit? Its too costly to do so? They don't have enough production capacity? Oh, simply WS-10 quality is worse.
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
MiG-29 said:
okay let me see, China buys 410 Al-31 to replace old ones because obviously those jets can not get WS-10s, according to theories here, those jets need Al-31s because the chinese engineers forgot to design a Al-31 replacement that could be fitted to jets that already use Al-31s

Then China will replace 290 Al-31s on Su-27s and 120 Al-31s on J-10s.

So half of China`s Su-27 fleet gets brand new Al-31s and almost half of China`s J-10 fleet get brand new Al-31s because obviously they can not get WS-10, So Saturn is the only benefiting here since probably 99% of J-10s use Al-31s and 95% of Su-27s use Al-31, then as Saturn says since WS-10 can not replace Al-31s on "old jets" so still China very likely will continue buying new A-31s.

Now let us see China buys more than 1000 Al-31s, according to Satunr China has bought more than 1000 Al-31s, which means China has around 350 Su-27 plus 300 J-10s, that use Al-31 and China has bought a at least 700 Al-31s for 350 Su-27s and 300 J-10s then we can calculate that Saturn will have job for a long time obviously WS-10 will not be able to replace engines on old Su-27s and J-10s that use AL-31s as it is now.


Now from the point of view of Logistic WS-10 still can not be used to get rid of AL-31s because only in 2011 and 2012 410 Al-31 were bought directly from Russia because to the theories here WS-10 already can replace　Al-31 in new jets like J-10B and J-11B but not in old jets, so as i see China has not rid of Saturn for Al-31s and 410 jet engines are bought in less than a year just to replace Al-31s on half of China`s fleet of Su-27s and 120 J-10s obviously the Chinese engineers forgot to make WS-10 an engine that can replace Al-31 in old jets obviously yes obviously.

Yeah

According to theory
Click to expand...

Your sentences have no logic nor correct grammar ... gave me bad headache. Just straight to the point mate :)
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
MiG-29 said:
Your theory has a few gaps
Click to expand...
There is no gap in tphuang's theory.

MiG-29 said:
Russia has now sold nearly 1,000 AL-31 engines to China, where they power J-10 and J-11 fighters. (Photo: Vladimir Karnozov
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

По оценке Масалова, общее количество поставленных Китаю двигателей уже приблизилось к тысяче единиц. Для обслуживания силовых установок, "Салют

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

First let us do math. Acccording to Saturn China has bought more than 1000 Al-31 engines.

China has Su-27s that were bought directly from Russia, so here the engines were not bought separately.

So half of China`s fleet of Su-27s were bought directly from Russia around 150 were directly bought from Russia with their set of Al-31s included.

So those 1000+ engines are replacements and do not include the engines on Su-30MKK and Su-27s bought directly from Russia.

So now tell me How many Su-27s/J-11 are in China`s fleet?

How many J-10s?


So what you are saying is China has more Al-31s than jets obviously those extra engines are either for brand new aircraft or replacing each and every Su-27/Su-30/J-11 with a pair of Al-31s and J-10 with a brand new engine.


So question number one


If WS-10 was designed for replacing Al-31s why is not replacing it on old jets?
Click to expand...
Simple, since the primary purpose of WS-10A is not to replace Al-31s. The primary purpose of WS-10A is to enable China to achieve total independence in fighter production.

MiG-29 said:
i mean why it can not be retro-fitted into jets using Al-31s?

Question number two

Why old Su-27s bough directly from Russia and J-11 made in China will get a pair each one of brand new Al-31s and all J-10s will get a brand new Al-31?

Question number three if Al-31 has so bad quality why buy it and do not replace it with WS-10s?
Click to expand...

These are the same questions, so I will merge them and give you one answer. Aircraft which uses Al-31 cannot use WS-10A because they are two different engine types. It is that simple.
 
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Engineer

Engineer

Major
MiG-29 said:
okay let me see, China buys 410 Al-31 to replace old ones because obviously those jets can not get WS-10s, according to theories here, those jets need Al-31s because the chinese engineers forgot to design a Al-31 replacement that could be fitted to jets that already use Al-31s

Then China will replace 290 Al-31s on Su-27s and 120 Al-31s on J-10s.

So half of China`s Su-27 fleet gets brand new Al-31s and almost half of China`s J-10 fleet get brand new Al-31s because obviously they can not get WS-10, So Saturn is the only benefiting here since probably 99% of J-10s use Al-31s and 95% of Su-27s use Al-31, then as Saturn says since WS-10 can not replace Al-31s on "old jets" so still China very likely will continue buying new A-31s.

Now let us see China buys more than 1000 Al-31s, according to Satunr China has bought more than 1000 Al-31s, which means China has around 350 Su-27 plus 300 J-10s, that use Al-31 and China has bought a at least 700 Al-31s for 350 Su-27s and 300 J-10s then we can calculate that Saturn will have job for a long time obviously WS-10 will not be able to replace engines on old Su-27s and J-10s that use AL-31s as it is now.


Now from the point of view of Logistic WS-10 still can not be used to get rid of AL-31s because only in 2011 and 2012 410 Al-31 were bought directly from Russia because to the theories here WS-10 already can replace　Al-31 in new jets like J-10B and J-11B but not in old jets, so as i see China has not rid of Saturn for Al-31s and 410 jet engines are bought in less than a year just to replace Al-31s on half of China`s fleet of Su-27s and 120 J-10s obviously the Chinese engineers forgot to make WS-10 an engine that can replace Al-31 in old jets obviously yes obviously.

Yeah

According to theory
Click to expand...

China never brought 410 Al-31 engines in 2012. The last Al-31FN deal signed by China was in 2011, and that particular deal was only for 123 engines.
 
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