Chinese Engine Development

This Is Why China Has To Buy So Many Russian Jet Engines!

A J-10 AL-31FN Engine Caught On Fire. The 81st Pilot Had To Change The Plane

[video]http://www.56.com/flashApp/out.12.11.19.b.swf?player_key=v&from=out&vid=Nzk3OTI2MjE&ref=hobbyshanghai.net&swfhost=www.56.com&loading_deco_version=off[/video]

Now, all Chinese fighter frames are designed to last for more than 10,000 flight hours. 800 hours per engine, how many engines that a J-10 needs? If Russians are not going to improve the engine lifespan, China will not buy junks from the Vodka country.

before blaming engine maker, may be you will show us accident investigation board report citing exact cause of the flameout?

"junks", huh. 'Vodka country'

Chinese aerospace students were studying here since early 50s. Non-respect to teachers wasn't a part of Chinese culture tradition that I know, apart of those interesting times of 'Cultural Revolution'. Compatriots from both sides - one saying that Chinese have steal anything and can't do anything by themselves, and other, saying that all Russians gave them is "a junk" - are boring.

MiG-29 said:

Look this is why i do not understand here your explanation.

So China bought from 2011 to 2012 410 engines right?
Now you are saying what is bad with buying replacements?

From the point of view of Saturn? well nothing, actually Saturn will re-engine half of the Chinese fleet of J-10s and J-11s only with those engines.

I want to ask did China build the WS-10 as an engine that could replace Al-31?

Why the WS-10 is being fitted to J-10 and J-11s?

So what basicly i understand from your explanation is China buys Al-31s because those jets can not be re-engined with WS-10
So then Saturn will re-engine all those jets?
So most of Chinese jets will need Al-31s. since all have Al-31 in exception of few test aircraft.

The theory you are telling is very extrange to tackle a reality.

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What tphuang and many of us told you isn't a theory but the reality. The only strange theories here are those that have been proposed by you as you so desperately distort our statements to keep your fantasy of Chinese dependence on Russian aerospace alive.

For example, in one of your distortions you assume WS-10A was designed to replace AL-31. The reality is that WS-10A is not designed to do such thing. WS-10A cannot be interchanged with AL-31 for the same reasons that AL-31 cannot be interchanged with American F-110 engine on F-16. Thus, it is your own distortion and not our explanation that is in conflict with reality.

MiG-29 said:

Most pleople here says WS-10 is designed to power J-11B and J-10B, so do you think honestly in order to get rid of Russian dependance in engines you will design a engine that will not allow you to be adapt it to old airframes?

Specially since here many claim China even Perfected the Al-31 improving it.

In my opinion most of those Chinese airframes are new mostly built in the 2002-2011 time period specially J-10s and J-11s and even Su-30s.


So most of those airframes will be operating in 2020 at least, so what basicly you are saying is China never got independent in terms of that fleet`s engines so only new build J-10Bs and J-11Bs will get WS-10s but most of all the airframes will be re-engine by Saturn`s Al-31s.

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Aircraft that use AL-31 would still use AL-31 were there not to be any new AL-31 for replacement. Thus, tose same aircraft being fitted with another AL-31 doesn't change anything.

China gets rid of its dependency on Russian engines by using Chinese engines on new aircraft. The process has nothing to do with adapting WS-10A on old airframes.

MiG-29 said:

What people here do not see is as China has moved from all copies of MiG-21 engines to WS-10 that according to Saturn`s designer Victor Chepkin, (designer of engines like 117, Al-41 and many others such as D-30F6 that powers MiG-31) the WS-10 incorporates up to 70% of Al-31 technologies, is Russia and the US also moved from their original AL-31 and F-100s.

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What you do not see is that Victor Chepkin told a lie. The fact that WS-10A cannot be interchanged with AL-31 shows just how different the two engines are, debunking Chepkin's statement. What's more, it is widely documented that WS-10A is derived from the core of CFM-56, the latter of which shares the same core as GE's F-101 engine. Chepkin's statement remains his own opinion and is not shared by others.

MiG-29 said:

Today Russia builds Al-31s with higher thrust M2 already has a 14500kg of thrust and M1 is also more powerful than WS-10

In fact all those new 140 Al-31s that China bought in 2012 are thought to be the same engines used on Su-27SM and to be more powerful than the original engines that powered the Su-27 sold to China in the first decade of the 21st century.

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That's your assumption, which has no basis in facts.

MiG-29 said:

I do not know if you agree or not but according to Chepkin, China will catch up eventually with Russia and the US, but at least for now they have not, perhaps in 2018 China will close the gap, perhaps in 2015 China will only power new aircraft with WS-10 or even WS-13 and WS-15, but the reality now is China is going to re-engine half of its fleet with russian engines if they will re-engine, however China bought close to 1000 Al-31s acoording to CEO of Salut, Vladislav Masalov

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China equips nearly every single regiment of J-11B with WS-10A. That is the reality. Russia itself is not that much ahead as its Flanker fleet is still using AL-31 variants in the same weight class as WS-10A.

MiG-29 said:

I understand perfectly your position, however i do not think that your explanation is accurate, first because i pointed out J-10B as well J-11B can use both Al-31 as the WS-10 therefore i do not think the Chinese designed the WS-10 only for J-10B because they can interchange Al-31 and WS-10 in the same airframe which means J-10As can be re-engined with WS-10s.

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WS-10A cannot be interchanged with AL-31 in the same airframe.

MiG-29 said:

Eventually China will perfect the WS-10, perhaps a few years from now, but the reason in my opinion the Chinese still buy Al-31 is simply modern Al-31 have better reliability than WS-10.

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Your opinion is wrong. The reason China brought AL-31F is because non J-11B airframes require AL-31F. The reason China brought AL-31FN is because J-10A's production line has yet to be replaced with J-10B. Reliability might have been an influence a few years ago but not anymore. AL-31 itself does not have a spotless record in terms of reliability either, as the gearbox of AL-31FN has lubrication problems that resulted in a few J-10 crashes.

MiG-29 said:

Will WS-10 fix all the issues and shortcomings it has? i think so, they will fix it but i do not think they have fix them.

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They have, as China is using WS-10A on J-11B.

MiG-29 said:

You can keep your opinion, but as Flateric posted Al-31 is still used due to reliability, therefore i do not agree that WS-10 is only for J-10s or J-11Bs.

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You can disagree all you want, but aircraft that is not J-10B, J-11B, J-15, or J-16 cannot use WS-10A.

MiG-29 said:

Look all what you are saying does not make sense.


J-10 and J-10B most be almost identical in engine design simply because there are pictures of Ws-10 and AL-31 powering J-10B

So tell me how come J-10B can take both Al-31 and WS-10s?

The first prototype of the improved J-10B fighter was powered by a Russian Saturn AL-31FN turbofan engines and it flew for the first time on December 23, 2008. The J-10B fighter jet uses a chin mounted Diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) to reduce weight and its overall frontal Radar cross section (RCS).

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logic very logic

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J-10B cannot take on both AL-31 and WS-10A. More specifically, a single airframe cannot use both types of engine interchangeably. Only certain prototypes of J-10B are using AL-31 while the others are using WS-10A.

MiG-29 said:

Look i agree with you that China will eventually only use WS-10s once the engine is perfected, no disagreement in that. but now i do not think is ready, why?

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Nope. China is already using WS-10A in J-11B regiments.

MiG-29 said:

J-11B and J-10B can use Al-31 and WS-10s, so it means J-10As can also do it.

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Nope. Both engine types having flew on J-10B and J-11B does not mean J-10A can be equipped with WS-10A.

MiG-29 said:

However WS-10 must have still some issues that has forced China to buy more Al-31, specially since the new Al-31 recently bought have more thrust and are more reliable.

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Nope. The fact that WS-10A is in serial production equipping J-11B shows issues have been resolved. The purchase of AL-31 is to replace AL-31 that have been or about to expire. Aircraft that use AL-31 cannot be equipped with WS-10A anyway, so the purchase does not reflect WS-10A reliability in anyway.

MiG-29 said:

The answer to all this discussion is while WS-10 might be comparable to Al-31s build in the 1980s, it is not now as capable to new Al-31M2s or 117S engines

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Those new Russia engine types only flew on a few aircraft and are not anymore ahead that WS-10B/G.

IMO the whole discussion on WS-10A vs. AL-31F has something of a "religious" touch, but please let us to take the facts / or at least most like and reasonable line:

J-10A uses AL-31FN in the same way, the J-11A uses the AL-31F and as such they can be (IMO) seen as equivalent to the early F-15/16, which were solely powered by the PW F100.


In thew same way the USAF developed and decided to use two different powerplants (namely PW F100 & GE F110), the PLAAF followed a similar path and re-engineered the J-11B to carry the WS-10A. Maybe this even included - to admit I'm not sure - the development of a common-engine bay, which can carry both engines, since we all know that the first J-11B's were reengined to the AL-31F.

As such the late model maybe can carry both powerplants but I still have my daubts about that (since then the 1. FD J-11B should have been reengined back again to the now current TH) but I'm almost sure that it is not possible or maybe at least not economically wise to reengine the older types J-10A and J-11A with the TH.

I think it's quite a good hint that regardless a probably lower TBO the PLAAF is quite satisfied with the TH for the J-11B since we won't have seen the J-15 & J-16 powered by that type of engine.

Deino

MiG-29 said:

Let me say this, at this moment i can say i can more or less think WS-10 will be eventualy be deployed in large numbers, why? simply China is investing and pouring lots of money into jet engine design, so sooner or later they will have results, besides they have the political will to do it.

So i have no doubts it will be deployed unless an unexpected event affects it, but i doubt it won`t be deployed.

Now how easy it will be, well there is where we really differ, like i said to you, i doubt buying Al-31s is a sign WS-10 is ready, because i doubt the Chinese designed the WS-10 to let Saturn still powering their fleet of J-10s or J-11s, because number one since the start of J-10 and WS-10, the chinese designed the WS-10 to power the J-10, so J-10B shows J-10s can be powered by both jet engines without any trouble.
I know we do not share the same point of view, so that is okay because only time will tell if WS-10 is ready now or in 3-4 years.

So let us wait and see, if within a period of time of 5 years WS-10 is powering all the new J-10s build from 2013 onwards.


In my personal opinion WS-10 will be ready within 3-7 years if the engine has serious troubles, and 1 and a half to 3 if the engine is ready or almost ready.

But here the question will be, will it be competitive with other foreign engines that can be offered to the PLAAF? and Saturn is beting 117 could have a window of oportunity if the WS-10 has serious problems

So since i know we do not share the same point of view and we need to let time to pass to see if WS-10 is ready or not, let us wait and in few months or even a year comment about it.

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WS-10A is already being deployed on J-11B and does not need new investment. The money that China currently pours into its jet engine industry is for research and development of new engines, as there are a dozen of engine projects being worked on right now.

MiG-29 said:

Look
Let us do this, let us wait, my point is not only mine, it is share by many other reports, and Russian Saturn designers like Victor Chepkin claim similar things, however like in any thing you can have your opinion as i can have mine.


Time will say if the WS-10 is ready or it is not, time will tell if the production of J-10s will switch to WS-10s or will remain with Al-31s in the near future.

Both of us are just opining and especulating, i know is better simply let time show who is right.


Like i said to you let us wait a few more months or a year and a half and we can comment.

Regards

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There is no need to wait. Already, there are 200+ WS-10A produced over the years deployed on J-11B.

MiG-29 said:

(by the way i am not insulted, i just consider the article Flateric posted is a widely held opinion on many Russian sources, and i base my opinion upon what the Russian engine industry and media claim)

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Russian aerospace officials and media are not reliable when it comes to Chinese military matters. Basing your opinion on unreliable statements does not strengthen your arguments in anyway.

Deino said:

IMO the whole discussion on WS-10A vs. AL-31F has something of a "religious" touch, but please let us to take the facts / or at least most like and reasonable line:

J-10A uses AL-31FN in the same way, the J-11A uses the AL-31F and as such they can be (IMO) seen as equivalent to the early F-15/16, which were solely powered by the PW F100.


In thew same way the USAF developed and decided to use two different powerplants (namely PW F100 & GE F110), the PLAAF followed a similar path and re-engineered the J-11B to carry the WS-10A. Maybe this even included - to admit I'm not sure - the development of a common-engine bay, which can carry both engines, since we all know that the first J-11B's were reengined to the AL-31F.

As such the late model maybe can carry both powerplants but I still have my daubts about that (since then the 1. FD J-11B should have been reengined back again to the now current TH) but I'm almost sure that it is not possible or maybe at least not economically wise to reengine the older types J-10A and J-11A with the TH.

I think it's quite a good hint that regardless a probably lower TBO the PLAAF is quite satisfied with the TH for the J-11B since we won't have seen the J-15 & J-16 powered by that type of engine.

Deino

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We know AL-31F/N and WS-10A aren't interchangeable with very high confidence because of the documented trouble that China encountered when developing the J-11B. Early tests showed WS-10A and Flanker's inlet are incompatible with each other with devastating consequences. Subsequently, the internal dimensions of the inlet has to be enlarged.

Engineer said:

We know AL-31F/N and WS-10A aren't interchangeable with very high confidence because of the documented trouble that China encountered when developing the J-11B. Early tests showed WS-10A and Flanker's inlet are incompatible with each other with devastating consequences. Subsequently, the internal dimensions of the inlet has to be enlarged.

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really, cant be that different, J10B has been seen using both AL-31 and WS10A?

The J-10B prototypes can be specially built to accomodate either engines.

Actually, it's not as simple as changing the engine as you would with cars, and we're talking about quite a number of J-10As.

The WS-10A looks to have a slightly larger diameter than the AL-31FN which means that it may not be possible to fit into the J-10A aft fuselage without modifying it. Even if there's enough space, the aircraft's aft supporting structure may have to be modified and replaced to accomodate WS-10A. Furthermore, the WS-10A has to be of the variant with the gearbox position same as the AL-31FN. This is just too much fuss, not to mention the need to set up new WS-10A maintenance lines for the J-10As and the retraining of maintenance personel to handle the WS-10A instead of the AL-31FN engine.