Chinese Economics Thread

[adeptitus]

China is a late comer to the timber import/export disputes in Asia. Japan had already raided through SE Asia for timber from 1950's to 1990's. In 1950's to 1960's, the bulk of Japanese tropical timbers were imported from the Philippines. When that source was depleted they went to Indonesia in 1970's to 1980's, then to Malaysia (Sabah & Sarawak) in 1980's-1990's By 2001 Japan was importing over 1/3rd of the world trade in timber products.

Now that Chinese manufacturing sector is on the rise, I expect China's timber consumption will continue to rise. Countries go from pre-industrial to industrialized status by consuming vast quantities of natural resources. From the industrialized countries, you'd hear arguments like "we already depleted/spoiled our/someone else's <insert natural resource> in our industrialization process, should <insert developing country> make the same mistake?"

Well, like it or not, the short answer is yes. Realistically, the only thing that developed nations & economic powers can do is offer/aid developing countries with less polluting technologies. Or, we could stop exporting western media/consumerism and adopt minimalistic living style.

 

[AssassinsMace]

I remember over a decade ago invasive non-indigenous water life from Asia was found in the San Francisco bay. The environmental experts came out blaming it on the Asian community who according to them were releasing these animals into the bay in order for sometime in the future they would be able fish for their favorite cultural delicacies. You should have heard the activists on talk radio freely expressing what they've held back personally for years and how Asians are reckless and lawless. Then an official report came out stating that the reason why there was non-indigenous species in the San Francisco bay was because of international shipping. Ships to and from Asia and San Francisco carry animal life in their ballast tanks that get released into the bay.

 

[bladerunner]

Still inconsistent. Have you ever heard of a Westerner that goes to China for an organ transplant being vilified? Nope. Never.

Ah Can I ask you how many Asians/Japanese are villified for doing the same thing?. Anyway unfortunately the organ transplant thing in China has been mixed up with the F.G. issue , giving me a reason to stay away from it.
Secondly Western Media have exposed organ transplants in India, and they have critised western recipients as a group.

So therefore China can't be blamed for the illegal or unethical acts of people in other countries trying to make money on timber, rhino horns, elephant tusks, etc.

THeres established bodies where one can purchase these items, however Chinas embassy staff in Africa have been caught with illegally obtained products in their luggage when returning home.

In a way, its what comes first, 'the cart or the horse', if there wasn't any willing purchasers of illegally obtained items, there wouldnt be any poachers.

The new spin on unequal laws and treatment. That's pretty hypocritical about your "China apologist" comment when you youself brought up the kick the can analogy. By that logic I can label you a China-basher because reading your posts in the past all you do is look at every angle to blame China while the West has no responsibility at all.

Would you prefer everybody to look at China through rose tinted glasses? While pleased with China's achievments, why shouldn't one be able to discuss China's warts as well. In doing so I make no apology as I think they are worth discussing.

Have I ever suggested that the West had no part to play in the woes of the world?

 

[bladerunner]

I remember over a decade ago invasive non-indigenous water life from Asia was found in the San Francisco bay. The environmental experts came out blaming it on the Asian community who according to them were releasing these animals into the bay in order for sometime in the future they would be able fish for their favorite cultural delicacies. You should have heard the activists on talk radio freely expressing what they've held back personally for years and how Asians are reckless and lawless. Then an official report came out stating that the reason why there was non-indigenous species in the San Francisco bay was because of international shipping. Ships to and from Asia and San Francisco carry animal life in their ballast tanks that get released into the bay.

I don't find that surprising, but sometimes criticisms of Asian practices appear to have some validity. One such one could be the sustainability of resources..

In NZ we are blessed with an abundance of seafood of allsorts alot of which are appealing to the Asian palete. Despite notices well place in Access points
and in Asian newspapers, time after time the biggest trangressors in taking more than the permissable amount or undersized, are Asians. This has lead to a Asian back lash when certain popular beaches were closed because of deletion.
But getting back to China I read recently that they have adopted a sustainability approch to the fishing in their coastal waters. Only good can come of that if its strictly adhere to, and no regional council flaunts Pekings edicts.

 

[bladerunner]

Well, like it or not, the short answer is yes. .

Why?, two wrongs dont make it right., and any economic advantage is only a short term gain.

 

[bladerunner]

China is being blamed for the Rwandan massacre because the bush-cutting tool machetes used were made in China.

I dont, It was the Belgian colonists that did that. THe Tutsis and Hutus , got on with each other long before the colonists arrival. The Belgians changed by deliberately making a distinction between the two peoples and treating them differently despite them both speaking the same language.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Ah Can I ask you how many Asians/Japanese are villified for doing the same thing?. Anyway unfortunately the organ transplant thing in China has been mixed up with the F.G. issue , giving me a reason to stay away from it.
Secondly Western Media have exposed organ transplants in India, and they have critised western recipients as a group.

What do you mean how many Asian/Japanese? The only people making this an issue and vilifying China are Westerners. So if Asian/Japanese aren't being vilified, isn't that because Westerners are not choosing to viliify them, and of course Westerners too? You're vilifying China for the illegal/immoral acts of those in other countries just because China supposedly buys those products. So by that logic why aren't Western countries being vilified because their people are involved in an illegal/immoral transaction in buying organs that they know, according to the critics, come from prisoners murdered for their organs? Are you really telling me you don't see the exact parallel? The only difference is the product. But according to you in one case the supplier is the villain and in the other case the buyer is. Explain that. And I love how Westerners buying organs that come from prisoners that were killed is not offensive while China buying timber is offensive so villifying the Chinese is all right.

And do you see India being vilified like China is for organ transplants for sale? That is not being used as propaganda for anti-India politics in the West.

THeres established bodies where one can purchase these items, however Chinas embassy staff in Africa have been caught with illegally obtained products in their luggage when returning home.

In a way, its what comes first, 'the cart or the horse', if there wasn't any willing purchasers of illegally obtained items, there wouldnt be any poachers.

Are there established bodies for Westerners to illegally/immorally buy organs that come from prisoners that were murdered for that purpose? And where did those Chinese embassy staff get their illegally obtained products? Home grown poachers? Did those staff members go out and kill those animals themselves? Got any proof? I can make a lot of assumptions too but I gladly don't have to. I just saw a TV news story about Westerners as organ brokers that go to China and India and offer people on the street money for their kidneys for Westerners. And this business doesn't involve the governments of these countries. It's purely Westerners doing all the brokering on their own.

The cart before the horse? Another kick the can analogy? And who first brought all these animals to the brink of extinction simply because of sport hunting? You how many Westerners killed pandas? I saw a picture of stuff pandas hidden the bowels of a London museum. They were all white because it's a little hidden secret that they want covered-up. And because of that no one took care of them that their black fur turned into this dirty white color.

Would you prefer everybody to look at China through rose tinted glasses? While pleased with China's achievments, why shouldn't one be able to discuss China's warts as well. In doing so I make no apology as I think they are worth discussing.

Did I tell you to? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm discrediting the critics so no one has to listen or obey because I'm exposing the hypocrisy of those that don't follow their own rules thus do nothing for the cause they supposedly believe in. This reminds me of Paul McCartney calling a press conference to annouce to the world that he wasn't attending the Beijing Olympics because he didn't approve of Chinese practices. He called a press conference for that? What did he expect? A revolution by the Chinese people revolting against the government because Paul McCartney is withholding his favor? And what happen? Abosolutely nothing. Paul McCartney gained no ground in whatever he was trying accomplish because he thought that his only card of denying the Chinese people of his acceptance was going to change everything entirely. What an ego to think his opinion amounted to anything. Same results if you think this is about convincing the critics to win their favor.

Have I ever suggested that the West had no part to play in the woes of the world?

Uh yes. Because if you go back to your posts in here you seem to never have give China a break. Someone counters you then there's always another spin or angle you'll take to spell out something negatiive about China while at the same time giving the West a pass. Remember your kick the can analogy? That's equivalent to the musical chair game of blame. All the guilty parties are there playing the game but the last one to enter the game doesn't get a seat but gets all the blame. Yeah like the West and allies were always careful about cutting trees or reducing pollution.

I don't find that surprising, but sometimes criticisms of Asian practices appear to have some validity. One such one could be the sustainability of resources..

In NZ we are blessed with an abundance of seafood of allsorts alot of which are appealing to the Asian palete. Despite notices well place in Access points
and in Asian newspapers, time after time the biggest trangressors in taking more than the permissable amount or undersized, are Asians. This has lead to a Asian back lash when certain popular beaches were closed because of deletion.
But getting back to China I read recently that they have adopted a sustainability approch to the fishing in their coastal waters. Only good can come of that if its strictly adhere to, and no regional council flaunts Pekings edicts.

But that wasn't the case. The environmentalists spread false information. So if the examples you expressed makes you believe it to be possibly then this example shows that your example could be lies to spread false information as well.

I dont, It was the Belgian colonists that did that. THe Tutsis and Hutus , got on with each other long before the colonists arrival. The Belgians changed by deliberately making a distinction between the two peoples and treating them differently despite them both speaking the same language.

Tell that to the anti-China propagandists who say China is totally responsible for that masscare. I'm sure many of the anti-China environmentalists upset that China doesn't blindly obey their orders believe it.

 

[RedMercury]

Well said, it's about time someone defended the Chinese point of view with as much vigor as others have attacked it.

 

[Violet Oboe]

Interestingly many officials of western Europe's rather influential green parties are very critical about China and are showing absolutely biased support for the cause of Tibet and Taiwan independence. (May be the Minjindang did not choose her party color for no reason! )

Notwithstanding the most nutty anti-China lot are animal rights activists steadily ranting about animal abuse by cruel dog eating Chinese brutes. Though being a fruitcake does not mean being unsuccessful in tarnishing China's image! My personal experience is that especially many younger and middle aged women are convinced that the average Chinese is an uncivilized animal torturer incessantly gulping down little puppies, snakes, frogs or even insects. Hence it's better to avoid any discussion about this topic or things can rapidly get really ugly...ff

 

[bladerunner]

Well said, it's about time someone defended the Chinese point of view with as much vigor as others have attacked it.

Im Chinese and its certainly not my point of view and as Tphuang said earlier, some criticisms of Chinese actions are deserved