Chinese Economics Thread

[proelite]

In theory that makes sense, but making exceptions for certain demographics (by gender, or even worse by race/ethnicity) is going to result in much condemnation and bad publicity. As discussed in the previous block: restricting marriage universally is already going to raise some eyebrows. Granting exceptions to certain demographics is just going to cause uproar.

Just approve more visas for women. Simple.

 

[manqiangrexue]

It does sound bad indeed, but how else to address the residency issue? If residency is prohibited for temporary workers while marriage is allowed: temporary workers will become highly incentivized to marry locals.


In theory that makes sense, but making exceptions for certain demographics (by gender, or even worse by race/ethnicity) is going to result in much condemnation and bad publicity. As discussed in the previous block: restricting marriage universally is already going to raise some eyebrows. Granting exceptions to certain demographics is just going to cause uproar.

First of all, nothing is automatic; this is all approved or rejected on a case-by-case basis so marriage does not equate to residency. You can be married but your spouse may have to move out with you to your country or you may have to go long distance because an expired visa means you gotta go regardless of your marital status. However, if you apply, the government has the power to grant you residency if they see fit. This will also greatly reduce fake marriage scams.

Secondly, the intent has to be baked into the approval process. The type of people you let in will largely determine where they end up. Single poor men hired to do construction or pick up trash are going to end up going home at the end of their visas because they not going to be able to find anyone to marry. What woman wants to marry such a person? Same if you let in, say a fat older woman with a husband and kids in her own country who wants to work as a caretaker for the elderly for 2 years. She's taking her pay and going home to her family. BUT if you let in a 23 year old unmarried beautiful woman who wants to work as a waitress or maid, then the chances of her marrying her boss or some other dude who can take care of her are very high. You have to be aware of the likely outcomes when determining who gets what type of visa.

 

[victoon]

Yes but it's a double-edged sword. Draining these talents is a pro for China in the sense that they deplete the pool for America and the EU, our competitors, but really only accept a small cream of the crop because we really don't need a large foreign diaspora in China nor do we want them to take jobs that we have actual local alternatives for, shooting up our youth unemployment. Just take the few we actually need without going so hard to spite others that we inflict serious self-injury with this blade. Self-preservation always before aggression.

kind of a response to you, but also some random thoughts.

While I do think China can have a lot of control over who/how many to let in, making a decision on who/how many is much harder. Running a country means dealing with many factors with complex interactions with each other, and it's hard to predict the exact outcomes. I think we will need to rely a bit on faith and value judgment.

Both Elon Musk and Jensen Huang's parents are immigrants would have fit only the k-visa but not the R-visa. But they created companies that gave the US an enduring edge over China. The US let in a lot of people to have these two to change the world.

From our side, can a Chinese person do the work that Katherine (Katherine's journey to the east, BS from the US, and MS from China) was employed for? Certainly! But I think she has made and continues to make tremendous contributions to China (likely more than anyone on this forum!).

I can think of two reasons immigrants tend to be more successful, given the same degree and even GPA. 1) Self-selection on risk-taking and 2) being bi-cultural from immigration.

I think we can all agree that a degree is not a good predictor of how much a k-visa candidate will benefit China. It's also hard to measure some of the benefits of having foreign workers on the Chinese society in general. I think using rigid measures of GDP and birth rate in the past was a lesson that we shouldn't repeat. The only suggestion I can come up with here is using an interview process that doesn't give an immediate answer and having multiple interviewers to reduce bias (like a job interview).

A crossing the river by feeling the stone approach is probably the right approach again on this issue. Start small and expand over time as we see fit. It will take a while for all the parties (visa applicants, the Gov, employers, and the Chinese people) to iron it out. I don't think people on this forum have fundamental disagreements, mostly just on where the threshold should be.

Also, there is the issue of Permanent Residency, which currently has sky-high merit requirements. I have no doubt China would want to keep some of the k holders even if they don't meet that requirement. It will be a thorny issue as well.

 

[manqiangrexue]

kind of a response to you, but also some random thoughts.

While I do think China can have a lot of control over who/how many to let in, making a decision on who/how many is much harder. Running a country means dealing with many factors with complex interactions with each other, and it's hard to predict the exact outcomes. I think we will need to rely a bit on faith and value judgment.

Faith and value judgement is where it's all at when we can't use black and white rules to separate people since these rules would be too discriminatory on paper.

Both Elon Musk and Jensen Huang's parents are immigrants would have fit only the k-visa but not the R-visa. But they created companies that gave the US an enduring edge over China. The US let in a lot of people to have these two to change the world.

Yeah but America is a relatively talentless society compared to China. If America didn't do this, it'd be an idiot non-competitive country. China, on the other hand, is teeming with incredible talent; our only weakness is the low starting point. We are at a point where we overcome this with selective talent recruitment to attack bottlenecks. We do not need mass talent flow because is redundant with what we already have. In the end, Elon Musk and Jensen Huang are both getting thier lunches eaten by Chinese companies.

From our side, can a Chinese person do the work that Katherine (Katherine's journey to the east, BS from the US, and MS from China) was employed for? Certainly! But I think she has made and continues to make tremendous contributions to China (likely more than anyone on this forum!).

Do what work? Show off rural China to Westerners? Other than that, she's a PhD in environmental science and she married a Chinese dude. We have millions of excess males so she's cool in complementing China's needs I guess. Special case approval for her!

I can think of two reasons immigrants tend to be more successful, given the same degree and even GPA. 1) Self-selection on risk-taking and 2) being bi-cultural from immigration.

They're not in China unless they're either bringing success from their own countries or they're coat-tailing white worship. People who come to China are adventurous, but Chinese people are still smarter.

I think we can all agree that a degree is not a good predictor of how much a k-visa candidate will benefit China. It's also hard to measure some of the benefits of having foreign workers on the Chinese society in general. I think using rigid measures of GDP and birth rate in the past was a lesson that we shouldn't repeat. The only suggestion I can come up with here is using an interview process that doesn't give an immediate answer and having multiple interviewers to reduce bias (like a job interview).

A crossing the river by feeling the stone approach is probably the right approach again on this issue. Start small and expand over time as we see fit. It will take a while for all the parties (visa applicants, the Gov, employers, and the Chinese people) to iron it out.

M'kay

 

[slime888]

I’m sorry but it's obvious what's happening here: the CCP is getting high off their own supply and they want to play "world leader" and virtue signal to foreigners. It's clear as plain day if you just read that interview where they talk about wanting to be better than the xenophobic West.

 

[manqiangrexue]

I’m sorry but it's obvious what's happening here: the CCP is getting high off their own supply and they want to play "world leader" and virtue signal to foreigners. It's clear as plain day if you just read that interview where they talk about wanting to be better than the xenophobic West.

We just did this stupid shit with 2 other guys yesterday, one of whom is now banned. Why don't you reread the last 8-10 pages and continue the argument if you have anything to add rather than starting the same argument again at the exact same baseline we already took off from 2 times already?

 

[slime888]

Anyone supporting this is the Chinese equivalent of some dumb MAGA boomer.

If you were white Americans you would be posting all day about the USA is the #1 country in the world even as your government ships your jobs overseas and imports H1Bs to replace you back home.

And FYI, plenty of European countries have special VISA for their ethnic diasporas. If China really wanted something similar it could easily do so.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Anyone supporting this is the Chinese equivalent of some dumb MAGA boomer.

If you were white Americans you would be posting all day about the USA is the #1 country in the world even as your government ships your jobs overseas and imports H1Bs to replace you back home.

And FYI, plenty of European countries have special VISA for their ethnic diasporas. If China really wanted something similar it could easily do so.

Yeah ok just because it makes you angry doesn't make it so. The MAGA people are the ones complaining that foreigners took their jobs and that's exactly what those who oppose the K-visa are worried about. The resemblance is unmistakably in the opposite direction that you claim. It's honestly really sad because from what I had known all up until yesterday, it was fat lazy, uncompetitive Americans crying about foriegners destroying thier workforce while Chinese people were the most aggressive, most highly accomplished anywhere with fear of no competition from anyone. I enjoyed their MAGA tears and now, sadly, I have to see the same loser garbage from Chinese people scared that they'll become unemployable when foreigners come to China. I thought we were better and we deserved to be number 1 but at the end of the day, aren't we all the same, eh?

 

[slime888]

Yeah ok just because it makes you angry doesn't make it so. The MAGA people are the ones complaining that foreigners took their jobs and that's exactly what those who oppose the K-visa are worried about. The resemblance in unmistably in the opposite direction that you claim. It's honestly really sad because from what I had known all up until yesterday, it was fat lazy, uncompetitive Americans crying about foriegners destroying thier workforce while Chinese people were the most aggressive, most highly accomplished anywhere with fear of no competition from anyone. I enjoyed their MAGA tears and now, sadly, I have to see the same loser shit from Chinese people scared that they'll become unemployable when foreigners come to China. I thought we were better and we deserved to be number 1 but at the end of the day, are we all the same, eh?

Why should Chinese people have to compete for jobs with foreigners in China?

 

[manqiangrexue]

Why should Chinese people have to compete for jobs with foreigners in China?

Because we're better and we're not scared of anyone anywhere. We work harder and we're smarter. That appears to not be true for some people who are apparently terrified of competition. To these people, any foreigner can walk into China with nothing but a suitcase, not even speaking the language and they will be wrecked by this foreigner in competition; that's how pathetically little confidence they have in themselves. Chinese workers can go to the West and rock everyone's world, make them dejected and scared to compete with Chinese people but now we want to stick our heads in the sand like ostriches when foreigners want to compete with us in China?

Those foreigners are screened for special skills; they are not automatically approved for meeting basic criteria. Those who do land jobs in China should have done so because they truly possess a skill that is rare or absent in China, so they can stay for a bit and use those skills to China's benefit and train their Chinese coworkers. Then they can go home. That is the purpose and selection process of the K visa. It is not to increase the supply of already overabundant skills.