Chinese Culture: Tradition vs Law

solarz said:

I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Are you saying all societies would behave the same way regardless of culture?

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YES! We have individuals who behave wildly differently from one another. Exactly because of that, when you sum them all up, everyone cancels each other out and we have a society that only shows one distinct trait: humanity.

solarz said:

I am not claiming culture is the only factor for China's problems. Instead, I am trying to explore the question of whether it is a factor. One among many certainly, but a factor nevertheless.

And if Culture is a factor, then in what way is it a factor?

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Why must you find a difference? What is the purpose of finding a factor that differentiate one from another? What's wrong with a picture where we all together represent humanity?

If you try to solve the current problems in China, singling out any particular part of Chinese society while ignoring the rest will not do it. It will only make the matter worse because you have ignored important parts of such society. How about treating Chinese like any other human being on this planet and try to solve the problems with the assumption that Chinese are also human beings and behave just like any other human? that would be much more helpful.

what is happening in China is not uniquely Chinese. It's universal. It would be much more helpful if you accept that and look at how others who have been there and done that have done to correct the mistakes. If you keep assuming Chinese problems are something unique in China, you will waste so much time trying to change things that have absolutely nothing to do with the problem and end up making things even worse.

Taiwan and Hong Kong both maintain traditional Chinese values much better than the mainland China. Yet, they don't have the kind of problems that China is experiencing now, yes? Taiwan and Hong Kong faced similar issues when they first started developing decades ago. They have figured things out and passed that stage. Yet, they are more Chinese than mainland Chinese, as they still maintain the core Chinese values much better than the mainland. So it is not what's wrong with Chinese values, or Chinese culture, that are the root of the problem. It's simply part of growing pains of developing a massive nation.

vesicles said:

YES! We have individuals who behave wildly differently from one another. Exactly because of that, when you sum them all up, everyone cancels each other out and we have a society that only shows one distinct trait: humanity.

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Yet, that is markedly not the case. People in Dubai behave differently from people in New York, who in turn behave differently from people in Shanghai. That is why people experience culture shock when they travel to a different country.

Why must you find a difference? What is the purpose of finding a factor that differentiate one from another? What's wrong with a picture where we all together represent humanity?

If you try to solve the current problems in China, singling out any particular part of Chinese society while ignoring the rest will not do it. It will only make the matter worse because you have ignored important parts of such society. How about treating Chinese like any other human being on this planet and try to solve the problems with the assumption that Chinese are also human beings and behave just like any other human? that would be much more helpful.

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To solve a problem, you have to first understand it. How can you understand highly complex social problems if you do not understand how that society's culture factors into it? Understanding what role culture plays does not equate to ignoring other aspects!

AssassinsMace said:

Car scams happen all the time in the US. There's the scam where someone will brake in front of you so you crash into the rear of their car. Unless there's recorded evidence, by default the insurance company will see it as your fault and pay out to the scammer no questions asked. Going to court cost more money. That's what a lot of scammers are hoping for therefore insurance companies will pay out even though they believe it was a scam. I have a friend that hired a business to cut down and get rid of a tree in her yard. About a week later someone came knocking on the door and it was a woman who said her husband, who was in the car park in front, was one of the workers and he was injured during that job and had to go to the hospital. She wanted money for her husband's injury threatening to report her for hiring workers that were being paid under the table. My friend is an architect so she knows something about that. My friend hired a licensed business so she's not responsible. The business her husband supposedly worked for is responsible. My friend knew it was a scam which she then lectured this woman on how it works and then closed the door on her face. The question is was the scammer's husband really on the job or were they in the neighborhood looking for a mark and then claim they were on the job? Most likely the latter because why not scam the employer? Another give away... they were white. Not many illegal Canadians looking for manual labor jobs in the US for less than minimum wage.

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Well done and touche to your architect friend.

vesicles said:

YES! We have individuals who behave wildly differently from one another. Exactly because of that, when you sum them all up, everyone cancels each other out and we have a society that only shows one distinct trait: humanity.

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Actually, I think this statement here can be misleading.

what I am trying to say is that one cannot and should not focus on society as a whole as an attempt to solve problems. Any society is composed of many many individuals who act based on their own free will. That means you have a large population of data points with huge distribution spread, ranging from completely righteous and selfless people at one end to outright evil people bent on destruction of all humanity at the other end of the spectrum. Any median, mean, average values extracted from such data set is meaningless. So anything that can be concluded from such highly varying data set cannot represent anything.

Let's assume that we can actually mathematically quantify some cultural parameter and compare between China and the US. You calculate some arbitrary value of 50 from a Chinese data set. Then you get a value of 65 for the same parameter with the US data set. Numerically, 65 is bigger than 50. Yet, both data set has standard deviation of +/- 200. that means the mean values of 65 and 50 have no statistical significance. Then the conclusion would be: there is no difference between China and the US.

As you can see, the methodology of using an entire society to analyze behavior is fundamentally flawed.

solarz said:

Yet, that is markedly not the case. People in Dubai behave differently from people in New York, who in turn behave differently from people in Shanghai. That is why people experience culture shock when they travel to a different country.

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Is this your subjective observation? Is there any scientific data backing your statement. What sounds reasonable may not be true at all. It sounded reasonable when people believed Earth was flat. It also sounded reasonable when people believed a heavy object falls to the ground faster than a light object... You need to eliminate your subjective thinking.

solarz said:

To solve a problem, you have to first understand it. How can you understand highly complex social problems if you do not understand how that society's culture factors into it? Understanding what role culture plays does not equate to ignoring other aspects!

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I am not saying that we shouldn't understand the problem. What I have been trying to say is that you have to find the right angle to attack.

What we differ is what the actual problem is. You insist that the root of the problem is Chinese culture, whereas I believe that it is the social/economic environment in current China that is causing the main problem.

Our different views will yield different potential solutions. One solution aligned with your view will be to attempt to change Chinese culture. Another possible solution will be to tailor a strategy to aim specifically at certain unique aspect of Chinese culture (such as your comments on how Chinese police deals with scams differently than American police, because of their different culture).

However, if I am right, then none of the above solution will work. Changing Chinese culture means changing nothing, as Chinese is not unique. No matter what you change, it will always come back to the same behavior as you cannot change how human behave.

Designing specific solution for unique Chinese problem will also not work. this is because you will find out that plenty Chinese people do not think in the way of your particular and unique "Chinese" way. Hence, your solution will actually bring out more problems than solutions.

My point is to treat Chinese as any other individuals on the planet. Learn from the experts who has gone through it and design solutions accordingly. It is not only more efficient, but also safer. As I understand, many in China have been extremely frustrated with China's current situation. Blaming on China's "unique culture", these people actually reached a conclusion that China is hopeless unless they completely abandon Chinese culture. this is a very dangerous beginning as this may later encourage unabomber approach to "fundamentally solve problems".

Again, as I said before, do not try to generalize things using limited data/observation. It is unscientific and dangerous.

solarz said:

Yet, that is markedly not the case. People in Dubai behave differently from people in New York, who in turn behave differently from people in Shanghai. That is why people experience culture shock when they travel to a different country.

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There is actually a term for your above view. It's called stereotyping.

Actually, I have been and still am working with colleagues all over the world. I have not found a single trait that can define any one nationality. Each individual is very different with their own personality, which allows them to act and behave in highly different manner. To this day, I have not met any group of individuals who would behave in a similar manner because they all come from the same culture.

solarz said:

No, I am not "idealizing the West". I am presenting Western ideals and contrasting them with Chinese ideals. I am fully aware of the nuances and complexities of real life.

The modern Chinese nation is built upon Western, republican ideals, while the Chinese people still largely follow traditional Chinese values. The question is, in which direction will the Chinese society evolve toward? Can modern Chinese culture assimilate Western ideals to create a new moral and ethical framework? Or will traditional Chinese morality remain separate from Western ideals in a manner similiar to the separation of State and Church in the West?

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Your entire post is full of bias, confusion, and presumption. You are actually asking questions of faith, judgment, and subjectivity while wanting or presenting answers as black and white.

Let's use your last question as an example, bold and italicized for easy spotting.

Separation of church and state is a theory which can be implemented in different ways, such as via no official state religion. However the implementation it is merely a part of a political and legal system which has great variation in practice depending on anything from the local culture, the beliefs of the people in power, to the beliefs of people directly involved in a case.

Is abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, racial prejudice, sexual prejudice, or reference to a particular religion or religious concept in judicial proceedings moral? Ideal? Legal? When based on "traditional Chinese morality"? Or "Western ideals"? How about "traditional Western morality"? Or "Chinese ideals"?

Morality, ideals, law, culture, group identity, personal identity, even religion, all cross influence themselves and are all fluid across people, time, and place.

vesicles said:

There is actually a term for your above view. It's called stereotyping.

Actually, I have been and still am working with colleagues all over the world. I have not found a single trait that can define any one nationality. Each individual is very different with their own personality, which allows them to act and behave in highly different manner. To this day, I have not met any group of individuals who would behave in a similar manner because they all come from the same culture.

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A subway ride in Shanghai during rush hours is a vastly different experience from a subway ride in Toronto, also during rush hour. If you don't push and shove, you have no chance of getting on the train.


Everytime I visit Shanghai, I have trouble crossing the street, and have to adjust my mentality. Instead of waiting for a traffic signal or crossing at intersections, you have to watch the traffic and cross whenever there is an opening. Lights and intersections are largely irrelevant.


Here's a video of people in Taizhou gathering around and taking pictures of a stranger's kid:
This would be a huge no-no in Canadian culture.


Here's an article where the author, an American, is freaked out by trays of blood in a Chinese hospital:


These are not stereotypes. These are real, genuine cultural differences.