Chinese Culture: Tradition vs Law

Inst

Captain
The key matter is the court of public opinion. For instance, in the United States, O.J. Simpson was exonerated, but among white people the majority opinion was that he killed his wife, and in a subsequent civil suit he was indicted for wrongful death.

Peng ci suits are more based on attacks about your name; i.e, if you have familiarity with political life, starting false rumors (but making sure it can't be traced back to you) about someone and other campaigns of slander can cause someone significant harm without touching a smudge of their property, a cent of their pocketbook, or a hair of their body. Even in the United States, smear campaigns are common practice.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Car scams happen all the time in the US. There's the scam where someone will brake in front of you so you crash into the rear of their car. Unless there's recorded evidence, by default the insurance company will see it as your fault and pay out to the scammer no questions asked. Going to court cost more money. That's what a lot of scammers are hoping for therefore insurance companies will pay out even though they believe it was a scam. I have a friend that hired a business to cut down and get rid of a tree in her yard. About a week later someone came knocking on the door and it was a woman who said her husband, who was in the car park in front, was one of the workers and he was injured during that job and had to go to the hospital. She wanted money for her husband's injury threatening to report her for hiring workers that were being paid under the table. My friend is an architect so she knows something about that. My friend hired a licensed business so she's not responsible. The business her husband supposedly worked for is responsible. My friend knew it was a scam which she then lectured this woman on how it works and then closed the door on her face. The question is was the scammer's husband really on the job or were they in the neighborhood looking for a mark and then claim they were on the job? Most likely the latter because why not scam the employer? Another give away... they were white. Not many illegal Canadians looking for manual labor jobs in the US for less than minimum wage.
 
There's a phenomenon in China called "peng ci". It's basically a scam where a person pretends to be hurt by a car in order to extort money from the driver. Variations on this include pretending to fall and then blaming the person who helps you get up.

From a western perspective, it is incomprehensible how these things are possible. How can you extort money from someone just by accusing them? How could you prove something that didn't happen?

We all agree that laws need to be just and fair, and when legal conflicts arise, the only way to have Justice is to have the Truth. This may not always happen, but it is always the benchmark against which all legal conflicts are measured.

Problem is, the Confucian concept of Justice, 义, does not depend on Truth. Instead, it depends on Compassion (仁) and Etiquette (礼). So the Chinese police, instead of trying to determine if you really pushed that old lady, would be more interested in "doing the right thing" by making you pay compensation.

Obviously, this causes a host of problems, including that infamous case where a little girl was run over by multiple cars and nobody lifted a finger to help.

So what's the solution?

You are making a lot of generalizations, presumptions, confusing different issues, and leaping to oversimplified conclusions insisting on attributing universal problems to a particular aspect of Chinese culture while also idealizing "the West" despite being presented with plenty of evidence to have a more nuanced and realistic view.

The solution is probably for you to go back and rethink your hypothesis, dig deeper into and look broader at the facts and take note of the state of the world at large to get to the truth of what multiple issues you are overlooking.

What you translated as "Justice" is exactly one of those words that I think has something lost in translation to English, it is also better translated as "Righteousness". Also consider the Chinese influences for flexibilities in achieving justice you decried and see its equivalent in "Western" differentiation between the spirit and the letter of the law, and the broad leeway for judgment built into every step of the justice system from arrest to sentencing due to the necessity of flexibility in dealing with the complexities of real life.
 

vesicles

Colonel
To continue with my previous argument about the potential flaws in the effort to distinguish different cultures. Most people like to compare people from different countries during the same time period. I think that such comparison is fundamentally flawed because different countries go through their social/economic cycles with different pace and frequency. You cannot take a society currently in its valley and compare with another society in its peak and conclude that one society is fundamentally better than the other.

Let me give you an example. Let's say we now live in the mid 1970's and happen to know Steve Jobs and Bill Gates at the time. And we immediately conclude that these two must be lazy bums and big losers. Why? Steven Jobs doesn't even have a job and is working in his parents garage at the time. Similarly, Bill Gates must be a big loser because he just dropped out of Harvard. And if you compare them with their contemporaries who finish college and find nice well-paid jobs, they look like losers. But we couldn't be more wrong.

If you want to truly compare different cultures, you will need to look at different countries at similar social/economic stages historically and see how people behave. As I mentioned earlier, a good example would be to compare the current China with the US in the early 1900's. The current social/economic situation in China is very similar to those in the US at the turn of the 20th century. You will find that people behave remarkably similarly. Since we have been talking about scams, let's look at scams in the US. Currently, one of the hottest areas for con artists in China is nutritional supplements. Believe it or not, health-related scams were also huge in the US back in the early 1900's. Coca-cola was originally marketed as a medicinal drink to "alleviate headaches and act as a brain and nerve tonic". Ever heard of snake oil? And then there were countless weird devices that were claimed to cure various diseases.

Why the connection with social/economic stages? Well, either country just came out of a major civil/international war several decades before. Either countries at these periods in time also just partially finished their economic revolution, which lifted huge portion of the population out of poverty. Many people now have some savings. With life getting better, people no longer have to constantly worry about putting food on the table. then they turn their attention to something else. First thing: how can I live longer so that I can enjoy this nice life for longer? Hence the obsession with nutritional supplements. Obsession encourages and breeds scams. Then the next question: how can I make even more money, now that I have a sizable savings? Hence con artists coming up with scams to lure you into some sort of super investment that will give you 2000% return... Additionally, as countries just got out of poverty and became a little wealthy, people in the govn't lack experience in dealing with any of these issues. This lack of experience translates to lack of laws and regulations to prevent such scams, as well as lack of ways to enforce the laws. Let's face it, the law enforcement agencies are equally inexperienced. Hence chaos...

It's not about cultures, but human nature. It's all about how human would behave in certain situations. You will still be you. But you will behave differently as a homeless vs. a middle class vs. someone who just won the lottery vs. someone who just became a milionaire vs. a trust-fund baby. Trust me, you will behave accordingly, even though you have not changed fundamentally as a person.

Finally, let me give you an example of Confucius. One day, Confucius and some of his students were just finishing lectures and coming out of the lecture hall. A servant came up and handed the rein of a horse to one of Confucius' students. The servant was acting in a very submissive manner, bowing his head, smiling excessively, almost on his knees. The student was then upset about it and told Confucius that he hated people acting like this. He believed that, no matter how poor you are, you should show self-respect. then Confucius said "you are saying this as a rich person. He is desperately trying to make a living so that he can feed his family. It says nothing about him as a person. You now see me as this respectable philosopher and teacher. However, I would be willing to do much worse if I were in a similar situation like him." It just shows that Confucius understood that the social/economic status determines bow people behave but says nothing about the fundamental qualities of a person. Countries and cultures would be the same.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
To continue with my previous argument about the potential flaws in the effort to distinguish different cultures. Most people like to compare people from different countries during the same time period. I think that such comparison is fundamentally flawed because different countries go through their social/economic cycles with different pace and frequency. You cannot take a society currently in its valley and compare with another society in its peak and conclude that one society is fundamentally better than the other.

Let me give you an example. Let's say we now live in the mid 1970's and happen to know Steve Jobs and Bill Gates at the time. And we immediately conclude that these two must be lazy bums and big losers. Why? Steven Jobs doesn't even have a job and is working in his parents garage at the time. Similarly, Bill Gates must be a big loser because he just dropped out of Harvard. And if you compare them with their contemporaries who finish college and find nice well-paid jobs, they look like losers. But we couldn't be more wrong.

If you want to truly compare different cultures, you will need to look at different countries at similar social/economic stages historically and see how people behave. As I mentioned earlier, a good example would be to compare the current China with the US in the early 1900's. The current social/economic situation in China is very similar to those in the US at the turn of the 20th century. You will find that people behave remarkably similarly. Since we have been talking about scams, let's look at scams in the US. Currently, one of the hottest areas for con artists in China is nutritional supplements. Believe it or not, health-related scams were also huge in the US back in the early 1900's. Coca-cola was originally marketed as a medicinal drink to "alleviate headaches and act as a brain and nerve tonic". Ever heard of snake oil? And then there were countless weird devices that were claimed to cure various diseases.

Why the connection with social/economic stages? Well, either country just came out of a major civil/international war several decades before. Either countries at these periods in time also just partially finished their economic revolution, which lifted huge portion of the population out of poverty. Many people now have some savings. With life getting better, people no longer have to constantly worry about putting food on the table. then they turn their attention to something else. First thing: how can I live longer so that I can enjoy this nice life for longer? Hence the obsession with nutritional supplements. Obsession encourages and breeds scams. Then the next question: how can I make even more money, now that I have a sizable savings? Hence con artists coming up with scams to lure you into some sort of super investment that will give you 2000% return... Additionally, as countries just got out of poverty and became a little wealthy, people in the govn't lack experience in dealing with any of these issues. This lack of experience translates to lack of laws and regulations to prevent such scams, as well as lack of ways to enforce the laws. Let's face it, the law enforcement agencies are equally inexperienced. Hence chaos...

It's not about cultures, but human nature. It's all about how human would behave in certain situations. You will still be you. But you will behave differently as a homeless vs. a middle class vs. someone who just won the lottery vs. someone who just became a milionaire vs. a trust-fund baby. Trust me, you will behave accordingly, even though you have not changed fundamentally as a person.

Finally, let me give you an example of Confucius. One day, Confucius and some of his students were just finishing lectures and coming out of the lecture hall. A servant came up and handed the rein of a horse to one of Confucius' students. The servant was acting in a very submissive manner, bowing his head, smiling excessively, almost on his knees. The student was then upset about it and told Confucius that he hated people acting like this. He believed that, no matter how poor you are, you should show self-respect. then Confucius said "you are saying this as a rich person. He is desperately trying to make a living so that he can feed his family. It says nothing about him as a person. You now see me as this respectable philosopher and teacher. However, I would be willing to do much worse if I were in a similar situation like him." It just shows that Confucius understood that the social/economic status determines bow people behave but says nothing about the fundamental qualities of a person. Countries and cultures would be the same.

Culture is the sum of beliefs and behaviors of a society, therefore the socio-economic status of a society is a part of its culture.

The US in the 1920's certainly does not have the same culture as the US of 2016, just as China in 2016 does not have the same culture as China in 1970.

The problem with comparing China with a USA of an earlier time, and trying to extrapolate from that, is we would have to assume that the two societies would evolve in a similiar fashion. However, while there are indeed some similiarities, there are also plenty of differences.

Again I completely agree that the scams I brought up earlier are not unique to China. What is unique, however, is how China, as a culture and a society, responds to such scams. Chinese police, for example, operate on a vastly different mentality from Western police. Where Western police are most concerned with enforcing the law, Chinese police are most concerned with maintaining social harmony. This is not just a problem of inexperience, it is an issue of differing priorities.

To return to my original thesis, the legal framework of the PRC are based on the Republican values first expounded by Sun Yat-sen, and is most certainly based on Western philosophy. However, the mentality of the Chinese people are based upon a vastly different philosophy. Much like Communism, the Chinese pay lip service to these laws, but largely continues to follow traditional Chinese beliefs in their daily lives.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Adding more CCTV camera's in public places for truth gathering data.o_O;)

Yes, that's exactly what they did following the rise of such scams. The interesting part is that such a proposal would be most unpalatable in Western societies, but the Chinese didn't even give it a second thought. It's a good example of the need to take into account cultural differences when trying to find solutions for social problems.

You are making a lot of generalizations, presumptions, confusing different issues, and leaping to oversimplified conclusions insisting on attributing universal problems to a particular aspect of Chinese culture while also idealizing "the West" despite being presented with plenty of evidence to have a more nuanced and realistic view.

The solution is probably for you to go back and rethink your hypothesis, dig deeper into and look broader at the facts and take note of the state of the world at large to get to the truth of what multiple issues you are overlooking.

What you translated as "Justice" is exactly one of those words that I think has something lost in translation to English, it is also better translated as "Righteousness". Also consider the Chinese influences for flexibilities in achieving justice you decried and see its equivalent in "Western" differentiation between the spirit and the letter of the law, and the broad leeway for judgment built into every step of the justice system from arrest to sentencing due to the necessity of flexibility in dealing with the complexities of real life.

No, I am not "idealizing the West". I am presenting Western ideals and contrasting them with Chinese ideals. I am fully aware of the nuances and complexities of real life.

The modern Chinese nation is built upon Western, republican ideals, while the Chinese people still largely follow traditional Chinese values. The question is, in which direction will the Chinese society evolve toward? Can modern Chinese culture assimilate Western ideals to create a new moral and ethical framework? Or will traditional Chinese morality remain separate from Western ideals in a manner similiar to the separation of State and Church in the West?
 

vesicles

Colonel
Culture is the sum of beliefs and behaviors of a society, therefore the socio-economic status of a society is a part of its culture.

I don't think you can say that. The very definition of "culture" means people within it can be identified with a single set of standards and rules, no matter of rich or poor. "Culture" should not be influenced by financial status.

As you said, culture is a sum of beliefs and behaviors of all people within a society. Especially when talking about a huge country like China, where many people believe in so many different things, the sum (or should I say "average") of all these beliefs cancels out almost any distinguishable differences. In the end, you get a society that practically only represents only thing: human nature. What you see is essentially a snapshot of what any human would do and could do certain situation. That of course covers a wide range of potential options that any human might choose.

The US in the 1920's certainly does not have the same culture as the US of 2016, just as China in 2016 does not have the same culture as China in 1970.

That's exactly what I have been talking about. Human behavior evolves and changes all the time, thus cannot be used to define "culture".

The problem with comparing China with a USA of an earlier time, and trying to extrapolate from that, is we would have to assume that the two societies would evolve in a similiar fashion. However, while there are indeed some similiarities, there are also plenty of differences.

Actually, we don't have to assume anything. Since the hypothesis is human of any nationality would behave in a similar fashion under the same social/economic situation. As long as you can show current China and the US in the 1900's are in similar situation, that should satisfy the premise. How each nation evolve has nothing to do with it. One is steady state, while the other is kinetics. Two completely different concepts.

To return to my original thesis, the legal framework of the PRC are based on the Republican values first expounded by Sun Yat-sen, and is most certainly based on Western philosophy. However, the mentality of the Chinese people are based upon a vastly different philosophy. Much like Communism, the Chinese pay lip service to these laws, but largely continues to follow traditional Chinese beliefs in their daily lives.

Again, you over-emphasize the minute differences and try to single out certain aspect of a highly complex society to explain certain phenomenon. This is very dangerous because you ignore other aspects of the society, which surely also contribute to the phenomenon. this is what happens when you subjectively examine a problem.

Additionally, what is the difference between Chinese traditional philosophy vs. Western philosophy? Deep down, they are very similar. Don't let names, such as Confucius and Aristotle, confuse you. If you look carefully, Western beliefs and Chinese beliefs are very similar in nature. Even the much celebrated Chinese medicine is very similar to what the West practiced before modern science and medicine. Chinese medicine believes in 5 elements (metal, wood, water, fire and earth), whereas Western traditional medicine believed in 4 elements (water, air, fire and earth).

And this makes sense because West and East had never been as isolated as we tend to believe. A couple years ago, archeologists discovered a 5000-year old tomb in the middle of the Gobe desert, where an ethnically (genetically) Chinese woman was buried wearing typical Germanic style clothing, Indian-style head wear and along with various Chinese and middle-eastern style artifacts (all of them consistent with the period, of course). The style of the tomb was purely Chinese. Apparently, our ancestors had been communicating extensively across the Eurasian continent. There have been tons of evidence consistent with this view. And the communication has never stopped, causing the different societies to mesh and influence each other. Thus, in the end, what we get is a huge melting pot of everything, East and West. All the perceived differences have been intentionally singled out to emphasize certain perceived superiority of one society over the other.

In the end, we as a whole are all the same. Again, statistically speaking, any perceived difference will be drown out by the large population base. Individually, on the other hand, we can be vastly different. But that means nothing when we are plugged into the society.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
I don't think you can say that. The very definition of "culture" means people within it can be identified with a single set of standards and rules, no matter of rich or poor. "Culture" should not be influenced by financial status.

As you said, culture is a sum of beliefs and behaviors of all people within a society. Especially when talking about a huge country like China, where many people believe in so many different things, the sum (or should I say "average") of all these beliefs cancels out almost any distinguishable differences. In the end, you get a society that practically only represents only thing: human nature. What you see is essentially a snapshot of what any human would do and could do certain situation. That of course covers a wide range of potential options that any human might choose.

I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Are you saying all societies would behave the same way regardless of culture?

Again, you over-emphasize the minute differences and try to single out certain aspect of a highly complex society to explain certain phenomenon. This is very dangerous because you ignore other aspects of the society, which surely also contribute to the phenomenon. this is what happens when you subjectively examine a problem.

I am not claiming culture is the only factor for China's problems. Instead, I am trying to explore the question of whether it is a factor. One among many certainly, but a factor nevertheless.

And if Culture is a factor, then in what way is it a factor?
 

vesicles

Colonel
OK, I've been talking a lot about the theories about this culture thing. How about some actual examples? The easiest way is to look at some demographics.

When we talk about and think about Chinese culture, we think about the traditional Confucian beliefs/philosophy and Taoism religion. How about other more Western influences?

China has over 160 million Christians, including > 80 million Catholics. that number will go up to ~300 million by 2030. The current population of Christians is > 10% of the overall population in China (~1.5 billion). These Christians believe in the Bible, not Confucius, nor Taoism. Among them, > 80 million Catholics are loyal to the Pope. How do you explain they will behave, when compared to typical Confucian- and Tao-believing Chinese?

If you argue that these Chinese Christians are a new phenomenon and they might still be Chinese deep down, let's look at Muslims in China. Muslims have traditionally lived in China since Han dynasty. There are huge population of them, especially in the North (> 10 million of them). They still firmly maintain their Islamic beliefs. How do you think they have influenced the traditional Chinese belief system?

Chinese society is not a homogeneous society, but a mix of various ethnic, religious societies. And its belief system is also a mix.
 
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