Chinese Culture: Tradition vs Law

B.I.B.

Captain
There is actually a term for your above view. It's called stereotyping.

Actually, I have been and still am working with colleagues all over the world. I have not found a single trait that can define any one nationality. Each individual is very different with their own personality, which allows them to act and behave in highly different manner. To this day, I have not met any group of individuals who would behave in a similar manner because they all come from the same culture.


If I was to come across a couple of people bang in the middle of Siberia for egs sake giving each other a "hongi". Im going to think they have New Zealand links.

A hongi is a traditional Māori greeting in New Zealand. It is done by pressing one's nose and forehead (at the same time) to another person at an encounter.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Designing specific solution for unique Chinese problem will also not work. this is because you will find out that plenty Chinese people do not think in the way of your particular and unique "Chinese" way. Hence, your solution will actually bring out more problems than solutions.

I'm sure you are aware that for young people in China to get married, the family of the groom must pay the family of the bride a substantial amount of money, and/or buy the bride a home. The home must have the bride's name, but is paid by the family of the groom.

This is a fairly recent phenomenon, but has become an ubiquitous practice these days. Problems arise when the young couple divorce shortly after marriage, and the subsequent conflict over property.

The Chinese government ended up amending the marriage law to specifically state that money paid by the groom's family must be refunded if the couple divorces within X amount of time, and that if a property was purchased with money from only the groom's family, the property would belong to the groom regardless if the bride's name is on it.

This is one example of modifying existing Chinese laws to better suit Chinese cultural practices.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I'm sure you are aware that for young people in China to get married, the family of the groom must pay the family of the bride a substantial amount of money, and/or buy the bride a home. The home must have the bride's name, but is paid by the family of the groom.

This is a fairly recent phenomenon, but has become an ubiquitous practice these days. Problems arise when the young couple divorce shortly after marriage, and the subsequent conflict over property.

The Chinese government ended up amending the marriage law to specifically state that money paid by the groom's family must be refunded if the couple divorces within X amount of time, and that if a property was purchased with money from only the groom's family, the property would belong to the groom regardless if the bride's name is on it.

This is one example of modifying existing Chinese laws to better suit Chinese cultural practices.

Again, you are focusing on a small detail and using it to make sweeping and generalized conclusions. Statistics, my man! Statistics!

Yao Ming is one of the tallest person in the world. Since he's Chinese, I would like to say that Chinese are tallest people in the world. Does that sound about right?

To do any generalization on certain population, you will need large amount of data to eliminate the risk of a few outliers skewing the entire data set. Of course, you will need to do a power analysis to find out exactly how many data points you would need. In the case of China, any statement on the general behavior of Chinese people as a whole will need statistical analysis of at least hundreds of millions of data points. A few news articles on some websites or Internet chat rooms won't do it. For every "uniquely Chinese thing" that you can find, I can give you a thounsand things that are universal all over the world. When you combine them together, which you must do to evaluate Chinese culture as a whole, those few outliers mean absolutely nothing.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Again, you are focusing on a small detail and using it to make sweeping and generalized conclusions. Statistics, my man! Statistics!

Yao Ming is one of the tallest person in the world. Since he's Chinese, I would like to say that Chinese are tallest people in the world. Does that sound about right?

To do any generalization on certain population, you will need large amount of data to eliminate the risk of a few outliers skewing the entire data set. Of course, you will need to do a power analysis to find out exactly how many data points you would need. In the case of China, any statement on the general behavior of Chinese people as a whole will need statistical analysis of at least hundreds of millions of data points. A few news articles on some websites or Internet chat rooms won't do it. For every "uniquely Chinese thing" that you can find, I can give you a thounsand things that are universal all over the world. When you combine them together, which you must do to evaluate Chinese culture as a whole, those few outliers mean absolutely nothing.

I am not making any sweeping generalization. I was simply pointing out an example where a law was amended to take into account a cultural practice.

I believe that other laws should similiarly take culture into account.

Here's another example:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
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vesicles

Colonel
I am not making any sweeping generalization. I was simply pointing out an example where a law was amended to take into account a cultural practice.

I believe that other laws should similiarly take culture into account.

Here's another example:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

But isn't this simply a special case of prenup? The Chinese law is simply recognizing and adding an amendment to the prenup laws? So it's not that unique after all...

And this is actually a good example of how "un-Chinese" that China has become. Traditionally, the bride would have to bring lots of stuff with her when marrying. This is called "jia zhuang", yes? Even when princesses got married, the emperor had to cover the house... Now the bride is asking the groom's family to buy a house in her name. That would've been unheard of in the good ole days.

Like I said, there are always a few unique cases. But it means nothing when you have to combine the unique stuff with all those universal stuff together to evaluate Chinese culture as a whole.

You can't look at those few unique cases and subjectively conclude that you will only consider these cases. You will have to include everything.
 
I am not making any sweeping generalization. I was simply pointing out an example where a law was amended to take into account a cultural practice.

I believe that other laws should similiarly take culture into account.

Here's another example:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Cultural practices? More accurately circumstancial practices based on the conditions and priorities in life some people in China are facing and deciding on.

Whatever the label for these behaviors, however common or uncommon they are, it's apparent that at least the government (which of course is made up of a good number of Chinese people) is trying to do good by the underdog in each of these scenarios through the most relevant tool they have, the state legal system.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
A subway ride in Shanghai during rush hours is a vastly different experience from a subway ride in Toronto, also during rush hour. If you don't push and shove, you have no chance of getting on the train.


Everytime I visit Shanghai, I have trouble crossing the street, and have to adjust my mentality. Instead of waiting for a traffic signal or crossing at intersections, you have to watch the traffic and cross whenever there is an opening. Lights and intersections are largely irrelevant.


Here's a video of people in Taizhou gathering around and taking pictures of a stranger's kid:
This would be a huge no-no in Canadian culture.


Here's an article where the author, an American, is freaked out by trays of blood in a Chinese hospital:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


These are not stereotypes. These are real, genuine cultural differences.


From a psychosocial point of view, I strongly dislike the word "culture" -- because while the definition of the word is relatively benign ("the way of living, behaviours, symbols, values, beliefs, which a group of people accept and act by, generally without thinking, and passed along by one generation to the next" -- as a definition) -- the word itself inherently pins those behaviours, actions, values and beliefs on the people of that group instead of acknowledging the major role of the environment.

All human culture is dependent on the external environment in which they have grown up in, and the root of that environment which in turn causes individuals to behave in a certain way I think can best be attributed to socio-economic status and the physical environment of a group.


You mention things such as riding the train and rush hour traffic in Toronto vs Shanghai, and it is not incorrect to say that the difference in behaviour of people can be attributed to "culture" -- but when we dig down a bit further, it is quite easy to see how the difference in socio-economic status, industrial and economic development can impact on the behaviours of people, especially taking into account their historical socioeconomic status and historical industrial and economic status.
Less developed countries or developing countries undergoing rapid industrialization tend to have less stringent traffic laws than other nations which are developed and which have been developed for a long time. That in turn causes things like more chaos during commutes and people naturally adjust their behaviour to the environment.


You also mentioned driving scams -- which is actually a lovely example to describe my point, because traffic scams exist in many other developing countries in the world as well. Russia is actually infamous for its driving scams, where people deliberately seek to injure themselves to try and sue a driver -- that is why Russian dashboard cams are such a big internet hit. Certain laws and regulations and economic circumstances between China and Russia share similarities which likely make certain people willing to conduct these kinds of scams -- is there something about the "culture" of each nation which makes these people more predisposed to the scams? Well, yes, but the culture arguably only exists due to the underdeveloped laws and the socioeconomic circumstances of the nations as well -- which are all then dependent on socio-economic status, and economic-industrial development of a nation.


If we want to go a dirtier route, we can ask why does China and many other developing asian countries have squat toilets in public restrooms instead of sitting toilets? It is easy to say "oh it's a cultural difference," but then when one starts to look into the socioeconomic and economic/industrial explanations for it, such as sitting toilets tending to be more complex, more difficult to maintain, and more costly overall than squat toilets, then it explains the "cultural" difference in a much more helpful way, which offers a solution to a problem (if it is perceived as a problem in the first place).
If we want to go one step more down in the toilet example, one can ask why a country like India has such high rates of public defecation -- would one be so arrogant as to assume that it has to do with their "culture"? Well, sure, we can attribute it to culture if we acknowledge that it is facilitated by the limits of the physical environment, such as the low rates of indoor plumbing, the poor status of public toilets in many Indian cities, which are all in turn dependent on the socioeconomic and economic/industrial status and development of India overall.

Other examples that we can relate to better also exist -- for instance, there are strong associations between low socioeconomic status groups and obesity in many developed countries. Would it be fair to assume that those groups have some kind of culture where they are perhaps lazy, not willing to work out and more susceptible to fast food? Well, no, because that ignores other major factors such as the quite widely documented association that lower SES communities in many developed countries tend to have more fast food joints, and ignores the possibility that lower SES communities find it more difficult to access healthier foods, that fast food is cheaper and more convenient (which is important if we consider that low SES groups often tend to work low paying jobs with many hours, often with long commutes).


I've ranted on a little bit here, and this is only tangentially related to the original discussion you and vesicles have been having, but the overall point I'm making is that the idea of "culture" is very much a downstream "symptom". If we want to truly and usefully explain "culture" one must look more upstream.


That is why whenever I read the word "culture," I always automatically mentally replace it with "behaviours, actions, beliefs, which are strongly shaped by the environment of socioeconomic status, economic and industrial status and history"... because the word culture I think bastardizes a much more complex issue, and it tends to ascribe positive traits of a group as if it is something inherent to that group's being (such as "moral fibre" or considering them as more "civilized"), and also simultaneously ascribes negative traits of a group as if it is something inherent to that group (whether it's traffic scams, obesity, public defecation, or whatever) and in the latter is is almost a form of victim blaming.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Talking about waiting in line. Chinese have been known to cut in line. Several years ago, the Chair of my department and I went to Shanghai to attend a meeting. It took us several tries to finally get on a bus. I mentioned to him that it's embarrassing to see all those Chinese trying to squeeze into a bus all at once. And he said "you should see how the French get on buses. It's like watching an ant mount..."

See? Whenever you think you've seen something unique about China. Someone else is doing it too...
 

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
Oh OK, in that case I think this tradition vs law thinking is both incomplete and invalid.

Also "Western morality" is a very broad term for comparison while you are focusing on one specific aspect of Chinese tradition/philosophy/culture so that is not a valid comparison. .

The comparison is completely valid and it is not West vs East it is Rule of Law vs. Oral Traditions.

This exists. It is real. The most obvious example I can give is regarding driving behaviour and licensing. The process to get a license in China is lengthy, complicated and expensive. All I knew complained of how hard and difficult it was to learn to drive and pass the tests.

The road laws in China are just like those in Europe. However, the second everyone gets their license, the instant they drive off the testing lot they immediately ignore every single law and behave in accordance with 3,000 year old rules of the road that were orally passed down to navigate passing animal drawn carts on narrow paths, deferring to local leaders, those who are older, those in larger and more expensive vehicles, those with .Gov license plates, and so on. Everyone thinks that the law does not apply to them, and as a result driving in China is very dangerous indeed.

Source: I drove a motorcycle for nearly a decade in Tier 3 and Tier 4 cities and rural villages.
 

vesicles

Colonel
The comparison is completely valid and it is not West vs East it is Rule of Law vs. Oral Traditions.

This exists. It is real. The most obvious example I can give is regarding driving behaviour and licensing. The process to get a license in China is lengthy, complicated and expensive. All I knew complained of how hard and difficult it was to learn to drive and pass the tests.

The road laws in China are just like those in Europe. However, the second everyone gets their license, the instant they drive off the testing lot they immediately ignore every single law and behave in accordance with 3,000 year old rules of the road that were orally passed down to navigate passing animal drawn carts on narrow paths, deferring to local leaders, those who are older, those in larger and more expensive vehicles, those with .Gov license plates, and so on. Everyone thinks that the law does not apply to them, and as a result driving in China is very dangerous indeed.

Source: I drove a motorcycle for nearly a decade in Tier 3 and Tier 4 cities and rural villages.

Have you watched those you tube videos of traffic in India, mid-east, Vietnam, Africa? It's even worse. Like I said, it's not about any certain culture, but economics.
 
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