Chinese Culture: Tradition vs Law

nfgc said:

The comparison is completely valid and it is not West vs East it is Rule of Law vs. Oral Traditions.

This exists. It is real. The most obvious example I can give is regarding driving behaviour and licensing. The process to get a license in China is lengthy, complicated and expensive. All I knew complained of how hard and difficult it was to learn to drive and pass the tests.

The road laws in China are just like those in Europe. However, the second everyone gets their license, the instant they drive off the testing lot they immediately ignore every single law and behave in accordance with 3,000 year old rules of the road that were orally passed down to navigate passing animal drawn carts on narrow paths, deferring to local leaders, those who are older, those in larger and more expensive vehicles, those with .Gov license plates, and so on. Everyone thinks that the law does not apply to them, and as a result driving in China is very dangerous indeed.

Source: I drove a motorcycle for nearly a decade in Tier 3 and Tier 4 cities and rural villages.

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An excellent example, and a good example of what poor enforcement of laws can result in. Poor enforcement of laws is an often seen trait in developing countries, or developing countries undergoing industrialization.

An increase in average socioeconomic status as well as the economic and industrial process of a nation over time will likely eventually cause greater enforcement of laws.


So as I wrote in my previous long post, I think it is not an issue of "rule of law vs oral tradition" but rather socioeconomic status and economic/industrialization and its effect on various domains of life, social norms, lawmaking, and law enforcement, in general.

I think some more concrete examples can help illustrate the point better.

Keeping mistresses is a widespread phenomenon these days, and it has a real social cost. It tears families apart and causes suffering, mainly to the women and children. Legally, the wife of an adultering husband can file for divorce and get custody of the children and a share of family property. Practically, men who keep mistresses tend to have the financial clout and social influence to make their wife's life very difficult if they so choose. The wife may even depend on the husband for her life style.

Yet, as limited in practice as the wife's legal options are, she at least has some legal protection. The mistress, on the other hand, has no legal protection whatsoever. Chinese culture tends to blame the woman for a man's unfaithfulness (again, not saying it's unique to the Chinese, just that it is a characteristic of Chinese culture), so many wives often resort to physical violence against the mistresses.

So there is a real legal vacuum here where a group of people are vulnerable. What should be done then?

You're probably going to ask, "why isn't existing laws against assault enough?" The answer is that because they are mistresses, they often have no legal recourse. First, police in China rarely arrest people for fighting even when they're complete strangers. Those matters are often settled in civil suits, where the injured party can sue for medical expense.

A mistress, however, usually doesn't have this recourse, as she would effectively be suing the man who is providing for her. So in practice, she has no legal recourse whatsoever.

China has a law against multiple marriages, and it can result in up to 2 years in prison. However, this law usually does not apply to mistresses, and even if it does, it would penalize the mistress as well.

What if this law could be changed in to apply to a person who engages in a long-term intimate relationship with a 3rd person while being legally married? Then both the mistress and the wife would have legal leverage over the adultering husband.

vesicles said:

Talking about waiting in line. Chinese have been known to cut in line. Several years ago, the Chair of my department and I went to Shanghai to attend a meeting. It took us several tries to finally get on a bus. I mentioned to him that it's embarrassing to see all those Chinese trying to squeeze into a bus all at once. And he said "you should see how the French get on buses. It's like watching an ant mount..."

See? Whenever you think you've seen something unique about China. Someone else is doing it too...

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That's interesting, because when I was visiting the Shanghai Expo in 2010, I got on an elevator crowded elevator. There was this French family in the back, and when people got on, they got crammed in. I was standing close to them, and heard the woman cry in a horrified tone: "Mais c'est horrible!"

vesicles said:

Have you watched those you tube videos of traffic in India, mid-east, Vietnam, Africa? It's even worse. Like I said, it's not about any certain culture, but economics.

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I live in Asia. Chinese are terrible drivers compared to other Asian cultures and money has nothing to do with it. China is not poor.

I'll probably get ignored LOL but I wonder if people walk in hurry (and not just stay) on subway escalators in China / other places all around the World ... you know, I've been to about a dozen of towns with subway, and definitely the highest percentage of rushing people on escalators I've noticed is in Prague, like 80%(?) which I consider a foolish habit here as the next train arrives within three minutes max. during rush hours ... I don't talk running on escalators not to miss a train or something (that's what I had to do myself on several occasions

solarz said:

That's interesting, because when I was visiting the Shanghai Expo in 2010, I got on an elevator crowded elevator. There was this French family in the back, and when people got on, they got crammed in. I was standing close to them, and heard the woman cry in a horrified tone: "Mais c'est horrible!"

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nfgc said:

I live in Asia. Chinese are terrible drivers compared to other Asian cultures and money has nothing to do with it. China is not poor.

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Jura said:

I'll probably get ignored LOL but I wonder if people walk in hurry (and not just stay) on subway escalators in China / other places all around the World ... you know, I've been to about a dozen of towns with subway, and definitely the highest percentage of rushing people on escalators I've noticed is in Prague, like 80%(?) which I consider a foolish habit here as the next train arrives within three minutes max. during rush hours ... I don't talk running on escalators not to miss a train or something (that's what I had to do myself on several occasions

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I know I'm doing it too, but I hate this kind of testimonials. "I saw this". "Someone got better after eating that". It means absolutely nothing when talking about a population. It's unfair to the whole population, as we are using isolated events to describe a whole population. This is serious stereotyping and even racial profiling. We should stop now.

The point that I'm trying to make is that we as a population are a lot similar to each other than we think. Why? Because we as individuals have vastly different personalities and moral/ethical standards. When combined together into a population, it's nearly impossible to make any conclusion on the entire population because of the wide spectrum of different behavior. Let's not fall into that West vs. East trap. We should look at each other as fellow human being and recognize that each of us is a distinct and unique individual. Blame that single person for what he/she has done. Don't label the entire population for what some individuals have done.

Cultural differences are overrated. West and east have more in common than differences. This is from someone who has lived in both west and east and is working with people coming from all kinds of ethnic, religious background. Each person is a distinct individual and should be responsible for his/her own action. Don't blame it on culture. It's human nature.

There is an old Chinese saying: you will find all kinds of birds as long as the forest is big enough. And this is exactly what I'm saying. In a big population, we will find all kinds of different people. Don't try to catagorize them into one.

nfgc said:

The comparison is completely valid and it is not West vs East it is Rule of Law vs. Oral Traditions.

This exists. It is real. The most obvious example I can give is regarding driving behaviour and licensing. The process to get a license in China is lengthy, complicated and expensive. All I knew complained of how hard and difficult it was to learn to drive and pass the tests.

The road laws in China are just like those in Europe. However, the second everyone gets their license, the instant they drive off the testing lot they immediately ignore every single law and behave in accordance with 3,000 year old rules of the road that were orally passed down to navigate passing animal drawn carts on narrow paths, deferring to local leaders, those who are older, those in larger and more expensive vehicles, those with .Gov license plates, and so on. Everyone thinks that the law does not apply to them, and as a result driving in China is very dangerous indeed.

Source: I drove a motorcycle for nearly a decade in Tier 3 and Tier 4 cities and rural villages.

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No, it is not Rule of Law vs Oral Traditions. It is new tool, new empowerment, new rules, including the concept that everyone is supposed to be equal under the law, and some people have not adapted to it yet. Once again thanks to the efforts of many Chinese people including many in the government pushing for change for the better.

Bltizo said:

An excellent example, and a good example of what poor enforcement of laws can result in. Poor enforcement of laws is an often seen trait in developing countries, or developing countries undergoing industrialization.

An increase in average socioeconomic status as well as the economic and industrial process of a nation over time will likely eventually cause greater enforcement of laws.

So as I wrote in my previous long post, I think it is not an issue of "rule of law vs oral tradition" but rather socioeconomic status and economic/industrialization and its effect on various domains of life, social norms, lawmaking, and law enforcement, in general.

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The main problem in this example is not just enforcement of the specific laws but the deeper issue of familiarity with and respect for the specific laws, and believing in everyone being equal under the law by everyone in addition to what I mentioned above.

vesicles said:

Cultural differences are overrated. West and east have more in common than differences. This is from someone who has lived in both west and east and is working with people coming from all kinds of ethnic, religious background. Each person is a distinct individual and should be responsible for his/her own action. Don't blame it on culture. It's human nature.

There is an old Chinese saying: you will find all kinds of birds as long as the forest is big enough. And this is exactly what I'm saying. In a big population, we will find all kinds of different people. Don't try to catagorize them into one.

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True, but there will always be some insecure poor sap jealous of China's continuing civilization(one of the oldest in man kind) and it's place in history (and continuing) because if it's existence is a threat to whatever "value" they hold dear because their life sux.

vesicles said:

I know I'm doing it too, but I hate this kind of testimonials. "I saw this". "Someone got better after eating that". It means absolutely nothing when talking about a population. It's unfair to the whole population, as we are using isolated events to describe a whole population. This is serious stereotyping and even racial profiling. We should stop now.

The point that I'm trying to make is that we as a population are a lot similar to each other than we think. Why? Because we as individuals have vastly different personalities and moral/ethical standards. When combined together into a population, it's nearly impossible to make any conclusion on the entire population because of the wide spectrum of different behavior. Let's not fall into that West vs. East trap. We should look at each other as fellow human being and recognize that each of us is a distinct and unique individual. Blame that single person for what he/she has done. Don't label the entire population for what some individuals have done.

Cultural differences are overrated. West and east have more in common than differences. This is from someone who has lived in both west and east and is working with people coming from all kinds of ethnic, religious background. Each person is a distinct individual and should be responsible for his/her own action. Don't blame it on culture. It's human nature.

There is an old Chinese saying: you will find all kinds of birds as long as the forest is big enough. And this is exactly what I'm saying. In a big population, we will find all kinds of different people. Don't try to catagorize them into one.

Click to expand...

Analyzing culture is not about categorizing people into a stereotype. It's about understanding what makes a particular society tick. It's not about labeling people, it's about understanding why people do the things they do.

Take for example this article:

After an additional year of researching Chinese domestic adoption as a Fulbright scholar, I see how profoundly American views of adoption and family differ from traditional Chinese conceptions. In 2012, I found myself baffled by Chinese journalists’ questions. They’d ask, “When did you find out you were adopted?” (In contemporary American society, people are usually told from the beginning that they are adopted, particularly in mixed-race families like mine.) They’d ask, “How could your adoptive mother possibly support your search?” (In the Chinese adoption community in the U.S., families are so eager to search that there are panels and talks and books for adoptive parents on how to search for birth parents.) They’d also ask, “If you find your Chinese birth parents, how are you going to rear two sets of parents into old age?” (American parents usually save for retirement and don’t expect to rely on their children for financial support.)

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As one Chinese grandmother explained to me recently, “You are very strange. Over here, only kids who are not doing well will want to search for their birth parents. Your adoptive mom treats you well. You went to a good school. You are healthy and happy. Why do you need to search for your birth family?” It’s a typical view, reflected widely in the comments section of Chinese articles about my search and in the private messages and emails I’ve received. Yet, in the United States, adoption experts and professionals characterize birth search as a normal developmental step for an adopted person — a universal desire to know one’s origins.

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solarz said:

Analyzing culture is not about categorizing people into a stereotype. It's about understanding what makes a particular society tick. It's not about labeling people, it's about understanding why people do the things they do.

Take for example this article:

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Again, any single aspect of a highly highly highly complex social environment doe snot justify categorization. I hope you understand my point. You might see your mom and dad as parents. But they certainly do not behave the same way when interacting with their colleagues as when they are interacting with you. Hence, it would be unfair to categorize them as "the parent type" simply based on how they interact with you. You can give me a thousand examples of how your mom and dad are perfect parents, but it is still unfair to categorize them as the "the parent type". Categorizing a culture is similarly unfair to everyone involved.

solarz said:

After an additional year of researching Chinese domestic adoption as a Fulbright scholar, I see how profoundly American views of adoption and family differ from traditional Chinese conceptions. In 2012, I found myself baffled by Chinese journalists’ questions. They’d ask, “When did you find out you were adopted?” (In contemporary American society, people are usually told from the beginning that they are adopted, particularly in mixed-race families like mine.) They’d ask, “How could your adoptive mother possibly support your search?” (In the Chinese adoption community in the U.S., families are so eager to search that there are panels and talks and books for adoptive parents on how to search for birth parents.) They’d also ask, “If you find your Chinese birth parents, how are you going to rear two sets of parents into old age?” (American parents usually save for retirement and don’t expect to rely on their children for financial support.)

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The fact that the article specifically mentions "particularly in mixed-race families like mine" suggests that it is less common for American parents to let the kids know about the adoption in same-race families. Then this statement alone defeats your hypothesis. If it is a "cultural thing", then all American parents, in mixed-race families or same-race families, should behave in a similar manner, as Americans share the American culture. Yet, they don't, as in the same-race families in the US behave in a similar manner as the same-race families in China (well, majority of Chinese families are same-race families) . So it is not a cultural thing.

Here you confuse specialized customs with cultural differences. In these mixed-race families, the parents typically have no choice but to let their adopted kids know the adoption because it would be completely illogical for a pair of Caucasian parents to have an Asian kid. No matter how you put it, there is no other option but to tell the kids the truth. I'm sure Chinese parents would have to tell their adopted kids about the adoption too if the kid is of different ethnicity.

solarz said:

As one Chinese grandmother explained to me recently, “You are very strange. Over here, only kids who are not doing well will want to search for their birth parents. Your adoptive mom treats you well. You went to a good school. You are healthy and happy. Why do you need to search for your birth family?” It’s a typical view, reflected widely in the comments section of Chinese articles about my search and in the private messages and emails I’ve received. Yet, in the United States, adoption experts and professionals characterize birth search as a normal developmental step for an adopted person — a universal desire to know one’s origins.

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the answer is in your own article. A behavior, which you are trying to use to emphasize cultural differences, has been defined by experts as "a universal desire". It just shows how focusing on individual testimonies (the conversation with the Chinese grandmother in your story) can skew your conclusion.

This is the last time that I will respond to this kind of testimonial stuff. Any single event means nothing. A culture is composed of so many different aspects. Any time when you want to categorize a nation or a culture, just think about how difficult it would be to categorize a single person. And you will have to multiply that by 10 to the gazillionth power in order to categorize a culture.