Chinese Culture: Tradition vs Law

Inst said:

And you are off topic. Go read "A Short History of Chinese Philosophy" by Feng Youlan or something. The epistemology part was simply raised to discuss Westerners' mistaken notion that their values are self-evident, when they follow from unique postulates.

Shall we return to "tradition vs law"? This thread is beginning to look like a train wreck, and I will not respond to Brumby's bait further.

Click to expand...

A rather hypocritical position given that you are the one that injected western esoteric philosophy into the discussions. Failing to make progress you then tried Chinese philosophy but when cornered to explain, you claim they are OT. That begs the question why did you initiate them in the first place?

Can moderators please step in? I'm amused that Brumby thinks that Descartes is esoteric philosophy (perhaps his definition is as simply things he doesn't know about). French schoolboys would have things to speak about with you.

Brumby said:

.... and? If the intend is to demonstrate a metaphor of something else then it is a point that needs to be made and how that relates to the thread. Having said that, the state of being is ontically derived until stronger evidence to the contrary can be demonstrated...........
It is not a matter of what I want. The thread is about Chinese culture and if this Zhou thingy somehow is related to the subject matter then I suggest you elaborate on the matter so that we are more enlightened.

Click to expand...

Well, the Zhuang Zhou butterfly dream is one of the 3 famous dreams in ancient China. It is a very important part of Chinese culture because it shows how ancient Chinese viewed the world and defines how contemporary Chinese look at thing the way they do. It is part of what defines Chinese tradition. So it is very on-topic.

Zhuang Zhou was one of the most famous philosophers in ancient China. He was almost on the same level as Confucius. Saying things like "Zhou thingy" sounds a little insulting, IMHO.

Please allow me to dive a little deeper into the dreams.
1) the butterfly dream. As explained before, the famous philosopher was sleeping one night and dreamt that he was a butterfly flying around and enjoying itself. Then the butterfly began to think "am I Zhuang Zhou, the philosopher?" Then he woke up. He began to contemplate whether he was a human dreaming of becoming a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming of becoming a human. This kind of reality vs dream thinking later became a very important part of Taoism philosophy, which obviously defines Chinese tradition.

2) Dream of rice. This talks about a very ambitious young scholar met a Taoist priest at a restaurant while the cook was cooking a rice dish. He described to the priest his ambitious plans. The priest then gave him a small pillow and asked him to take a little nap. He did that. In the dream, he married a daughter of a very powerful official and became a very influential member of the empirical court. Then other officials became jealous of him and began to frame him. So his entire family was executed while he was exiled. Then the emperor found out that he was actually framed, then brought him back to the empirical court and gave him lots of goodies. Then at an old age, he wanted to retire but the emperor would not allow it. Then just as he was dying, he woke up. He looked around and found out that the cook was still cooking the rice dish. So he dreamt his entire life, up and down, glory and tragedy in such short amount of time. He then understood that ambition or not, human life is just like a dream. So a simple message: lighten up and enjoy life! Don't be so serious!

3) dream of ant kingdom. This is similar to 2). It talks about a guy taking a nap under a tree. He then dreamt of becoming the king of a magnificent kingdom, again with ups and downs and glories and tragedies. He then woke up and found out that the magnificent kingdom in his dream was a tuall an ant mount under the tree. This also describes a philosophy of comparing a man's life to a dream.

These 3 famous dreams are very important part of Chinese culture. They epitomize quintessential Chinese Taoism philosophy and religion. So they are very relevant to the discussion of Chinese tradition. And please try your best not to insult such important part of Chinese culture.

Thanks for that, Vesicles, I vaguely remember the three butterfly dreams from elementary school.

The Eurocentric American education system teaches little of Asian cultures, and that's too bad, because it leaves most Americans little foundation to understand one of the oldest cultures in the world, and why its history/culture continues to dominate how it looks at and reacts to the world.

vesicles said:

Well, the Zhuang Zhou butterfly dream is one of the 3 famous dreams in ancient China. It is a very important part of Chinese culture because it shows how ancient Chinese viewed the world and defines how contemporary Chinese look at thing the way they do. It is part of what defines Chinese tradition. So it is very on-topic.

Click to expand...

Please refer to the exchanges on Zhuang Zhou that I had with Inst. I did not suggest it was OT but Inst who initially brought it up in the first place and then subsequently claimed it was OT. My emphasis to poster is to explain (i) the philosophical underpinning of the butterfly dream; and (ii) connect it to the relevancy of the thread. These two points were repeated

.... and? If the intend is to demonstrate a metaphor of something else then it is a point that needs to be made and how that relates to the thread. Having said that, the state of being is ontically derived until stronger evidence to the contrary can be demonstrated...........
It is not a matter of what I want. The thread is about Chinese culture and if this Zhou thingy somehow is related to the subject matter then I suggest you elaborate on the matter so that we are more enlightened.

Click to expand...

vesicles said:

Zhuang Zhou was one of the most famous philosophers in ancient China. He was almost on the same level as Confucius. Saying things like "Zhou thingy" sounds a little insulting, IMHO.

Click to expand...

I don't know what is perceived in the US but in Australia a "thingy" expression is simply I don't know tell me. It is a neutral enquiry.

vesicles said:

Please allow me to dive a little deeper into the dreams.
1) the butterfly dream. As explained before, the famous philosopher was sleeping one night and dreamt that he was a butterfly flying around and enjoying itself. Then the butterfly began to think "am I Zhuang Zhou, the philosopher?" Then he woke up. He began to contemplate whether he was a human dreaming of becoming a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming of becoming a human. This kind of reality vs dream thinking later became a very important part of Taoism philosophy, which obviously defines Chinese tradition.

Click to expand...

There is no doubt Taoism is ingrained in Chinese tradition because there are basically only three main schools, the other being Mohism and Confucianism. The point though is which I am repeating - again, is how is the meaning of the butterfly dream and specifically how is that directly connected to the thread itself. So far, no one is making that connection other than it is an important part of Chinese tradition.

vesicles said:

2) Dream of rice. This talks about a very ambitious young scholar met a Taoist priest at a restaurant while the cook was cooking a rice dish. He described to the priest his ambitious plans. The priest then gave him a small pillow and asked him to take a little nap. He did that. In the dream, he married a daughter of a very powerful official and became a very influential member of the empirical court. Then other officials became jealous of him and began to frame him. So his entire family was executed while he was exiled. Then the emperor found out that he was actually framed, then brought him back to the empirical court and gave him lots of goodies. Then at an old age, he wanted to retire but the emperor would not allow it. Then just as he was dying, he woke up. He looked around and found out that the cook was still cooking the rice dish. So he dreamt his entire life, up and down, glory and tragedy in such short amount of time. He then understood that ambition or not, human life is just like a dream. So a simple message: lighten up and enjoy life! Don't be so serious!

3) dream of ant kingdom. This is similar to 2). It talks about a guy taking a nap under a tree. He then dreamt of becoming the king of a magnificent kingdom, again with ups and downs and glories and tragedies. He then woke up and found out that the magnificent kingdom in his dream was a tuall an ant mount under the tree. This also describes a philosophy of comparing a man's life to a dream.

These 3 famous dreams are very important part of Chinese culture. They epitomize quintessential Chinese Taoism philosophy and religion. So they are very relevant to the discussion of Chinese tradition. And please try your best not to insult such important part of Chinese culture.

Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, you are in some form of scientific related profession. You tailor experiments to establish certain outcome. In other words, you establish the conditions necessary to achieve the end point and not design experiments looking for a purpose. So far the conversation appears to be simply about relevancy of leading Chinese schools on tradition (which is never disputed) but frankly has failed to address how specific philosophical thinking has influenced Chinese tradition. In short, it is not about relevancy but how.

For example, I took the opportunity to conduct some research to understand Zhuangzi's philosophical thinking. In essence, his thoughts are best understood as transcendental perspectivism. The metaphysical foundation of his thoughts are multi perspective but are ontologically dependent even though it appears to be unrelated. His emphasis is to elevate one's understanding to a higher point of view (transcendental) to overcome the limitation of finite points of view. At a transcendent level, what might be competing or incoherent perspective are seen to be mutually connected. These nature of thought can be seen from the three dreams.

Blackstone said:

Thanks for that, Vesicles, I vaguely remember the three butterfly dreams from elementary school.

The Eurocentric American education system teaches little of Asian cultures, and that's too bad, because it leaves most Americans little foundation to understand one of the oldest cultures in the world, and why its history/culture continues to dominate how it looks at and reacts to the world.

Click to expand...

The pleasure is all mine! I'm a history junky. My dad got me into ancient Chinese history very early. I was reading kids' versions of Chinese ancient history texts even while I was in kindergarten when other kids were into comics and watching cartoons. I started reading the adult versions of Chinese history when I was in 2nd or third grade, like the chronicles of east Zhou dynasty.

Unfortunately, that stopped when I came to the States when I was in 9th grade. Like you said, the Eurocentric education in the US just does not give me an opportunity to get deeper into Chinese history like I would like to. Now? I've completely lost the ability to write Chinese. I can still read Chinese somewhat but I always get a headche when I do.

However, because I've built such a strong foundation when I was little, what I can still remember still surprises a lot of people. I'd like to believe that my knowledge of the ancient Chinese history is among top 10-15 percentile of all native Chinese who have lived their entire lives in China. Even those with college education in China would be considered lucky to know half of what I now can still remember about ancient Chinese history . I always joke that I forget more than most know about Chinese history.

Well, enough bragging... I'm feeling pretty good about myself now

Mohism is one of the major schools of Chinese philosophy? Bud, you're out of your league. Mohism was exterminated and contributed almost nothing to the Chinese tradition after the Qin consolidation. Chinese intellectuals only returned to Mohism after they found overlaps between Mohist dictates and Western cultures (universal love, not the specific love that Confucius advocated, an emphasis on reason and a developed logical system).

Meanwhile, Taoism had a robust second life after the Qin unification, eventually dividing into a philosophical and religious school, with the philosophical school eventually being absorbed into Neoconfucianism. And Confucianism was the state philosophy for two millennia. So, no.

Brumby said:

I don't know what is perceived in the US but in Australia a "thingy" expression is simply I don't know tell me. It is a neutral enquiry.

Click to expand...

Well, if you were talking about an object, I would be fine with it. Zhuang Zhou is a person, which you apparently knew when composing the post. Yet, you still decided to associate his name with "thingy". I am not comfortable with a description of him as a "thing". Please show some respect. All I'm asking.

Inst said:

Mohism is one of the major schools of Chinese philosophy? Bud, you're out of your league. Mohism was exterminated and contributed almost nothing to the Chinese tradition after the Qin consolidation. Chinese intellectuals only returned to Mohism after they found overlaps between Mohist dictates and Western cultures (universal love, not the specific love that Confucius advocated, an emphasis on reason and a developed logical system).

Meanwhile, Taoism had a robust second life after the Qin unification, eventually dividing into a philosophical and religious school, with the philosophical school eventually being absorbed into Neoconfucianism. And Confucianism was the state philosophy for two millennia. So, no.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Moism was actually only one of hundreds of philosophical schools during the Warring States period in the East Zhou dynasty. It declined and vanished all together in the middle of West Han dynasty. However, some of its thinking had indeed been incorporated into the Confuciusian thinking.

vesicles said:

Well, if you were talking about an object, I would be fine with it. Zhuang Zhou is a person, which you apparently knew when composing the post. Yet, you still decided to associate his name with "thingy". I am not comfortable with a description of him as a "thing". Please show some respect. All I'm asking.

Click to expand...

Point taken. So are you going to take up the mantle in explaining how and in what ways the three dreams had influenced Chinese tradition besides saying it has?