Chinese Culture: Tradition vs Law

vesicles

Colonel
There is no doubt Taoism is ingrained in Chinese tradition because there are basically only three main schools, the other being Mohism and Confucianism. The point though is which I am repeating - again, is how is the meaning of the butterfly dream and specifically how is that directly connected to the thread itself. So far, no one is making that connection other than it is an important part of Chinese tradition.

In your earlier post, you asked for the details of the dreams described by Inst. I simply wanted to describe the 3 important dreams in ancient China and shed some light on their importance to Chinese culture. My goal was and still is not to argue with anyone. That's the end of my discussion on sch topic.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Point taken. So are you going to take up the mantle in explaining how and in what ways the three dreams had influenced Chinese tradition besides saying it has?

Unfortunately no. I am not qualified to discuss such large philosophical point.

My goal was simply to list facts, which has been accomplished.
 

Brumby

Major
In your earlier post, you asked for the details of the dreams described by Inst. I simply wanted to describe the 3 important dreams in ancient China and shed some light on their importance to Chinese culture. My goal was and still is not to argue with anyone. That's the end of my discussion on sch topic.
Actually I wasn't asking for the details of the dream which I had expressed multiple times. I was asking for an explanation to the underlying philosophical thinking behind the dream story. It is only with an understanding of the thinking behind it that we can then connect to its influence on Chinese tradition, if any.

Unfortunately no. I am not qualified to discuss such large philosophical point.
It is fine. I respect your candor in what you are prepared to discuss.
 

solarz

Brigadier
There's a phenomenon in China called "peng ci". It's basically a scam where a person pretends to be hurt by a car in order to extort money from the driver. Variations on this include pretending to fall and then blaming the person who helps you get up.

From a western perspective, it is incomprehensible how these things are possible. How can you extort money from someone just by accusing them? How could you prove something that didn't happen?

We all agree that laws need to be just and fair, and when legal conflicts arise, the only way to have Justice is to have the Truth. This may not always happen, but it is always the benchmark against which all legal conflicts are measured.

Problem is, the Confucian concept of Justice, 义, does not depend on Truth. Instead, it depends on Compassion (仁) and Etiquette (礼). So the Chinese police, instead of trying to determine if you really pushed that old lady, would be more interested in "doing the right thing" by making you pay compensation.

Obviously, this causes a host of problems, including that infamous case where a little girl was run over by multiple cars and nobody lifted a finger to help.

So what's the solution?
 

vesicles

Colonel
There's a phenomenon in China called "peng ci". It's basically a scam where a person pretends to be hurt by a car in order to extort money from the driver. Variations on this include pretending to fall and then blaming the person who helps you get up.

From a western perspective, it is incomprehensible how these things are possible. How can you extort money from someone just by accusing them? How could you prove something that didn't happen?

Actually, such scam is very conceivable in the West. there had been plenty such scams in the US back in the 1920's and 30's.

The main issue is not about culture, but economic/financial status. Many think of scams like this, as a desperate attempt to make money. this is especially the case in a country with some of widest wealth gap in the world. The US was in a similar situation at the turn of the 20th century, hence many crazy scams. If you watch the show "Mystery at the Museums" on Travel channel, you will see how many of the scams going on in China now were actually invented and used widely by Westerners not too long ago.

the main issue is financial status. When everyone is well off enough, very few will resort to such scams.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Actually, such scam is very conceivable in the West. there had been plenty such scams in the US back in the 1920's and 30's.

The main issue is not about culture, but economic/financial status. Many think of scams like this, as a desperate attempt to make money. this is especially the case in a country with some of widest wealth gap in the world. The US was in a similar situation at the turn of the 20th century, hence many crazy scams. If you watch the show "Mystery at the Museums" on Travel channel, you will see how many of the scams going on in China now were actually invented and used widely by Westerners not too long ago.

the main issue is financial status. When everyone is well off enough, very few will resort to such scams.

It's not the people who perpetuate such scams that are worrying, it's the fact that they are so successful at it that the entire society becomes afraid of helping strangers.

You can have all sorts of scams, but it's pretty crazy that you can get sued for helping someone get up.

I found this post on a Chinese BBS to be pretty informative:

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“碰瓷”,原是指清朝末年的一些没落的八旗子弟“发明”的。这些人天天抱着“名贵”的瓷器(当然是赝品),专挑热闹的街市瞎溜达。然后瞅准机会,故意让来往马车“碰”他一下,他手中的瓷器随即落地摔碎,于是瓷器的主人就“义正词严”地缠住车主要求按名贵瓷器的价格给予赔偿。
  现如今关于“碰瓷”听到最多的莫过于关于汽车了,有那么一撮人,打起了汽车的歪主意,做着这些不光彩的事,以此来敲诈勒索。尽管我国法治建设越来越健全了,但碰瓷现象却有逐渐增多的趋势,究其原因,是为什么呢?
  笔者认为是有很多原因的。其一,很多碰瓷者误以为“碰瓷”难以成罪,违法成本较低,从而有“利”可图。其二,碰瓷者多游手好闲,较为懒惰,想法设法骗取不义之财。其三,处罚过轻,碰瓷者多为50岁以上的中老年人,因为他们是弱势群体,一旦被揭穿,依然可以全身而退,就算碰瓷者是年轻人,往往也是教育了事,没有重罚就会屡禁不止。其四,反面教材太多,碰瓷者成功的案例过多,让其他人看到了好处而主动加入“碰瓷大军”。其五,某些碰瓷者脸皮太厚,被碰瓷者怕麻烦、怕被纠缠而选择了私了,这种情况是很常见的,殊不知,这一举动极大地助长了他们的嚣张气焰。
  如何防止碰瓷呢?对于国家来说,一方面要完善法制建设,制定相关专项法律来约束碰瓷者,同时加大惩罚力度,另一方面进行大范围宣传,让碰瓷者无地自容,让公众一起监督。对于普通大众来说,最好的办法莫过于安装360度行车记录仪了,只要有视频记录,还会怕这些无赖吗?但最重要的还是要遵守交通规则,这样才不会被各种碰瓷者抓住把柄。
  碰瓷者是无赖,但我们也要管好自己,多张点心眼,在握好证据的前提下,堂堂正正,让碰瓷者无地自容。作为旁观者,不要怕麻烦,大家一起努力,抵制碰瓷者,碰瓷者成功的几率降低了,碰瓷者的数量自然也就减少了,我们大家也都会清净许多了。

The bold portion is, I think, the key issue. The people perpetuating these scams are generally not punished even if they are discovered, because they are elderly. This encourages others to follow suit, therefore creating a widespread phenomenon.
 

solarz

Brigadier
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This sites teaches you how to handle such scam in the US. It's not a unique Chinese thing. It's universal. In fact, every insurance company has a dedicated department handling scams like these.

Yup, and the way they recommend handling these scams only serves to illustrate the differences:

Staged car accident scam artists are vulnerable to facts. The more information you provide, the more equipped you are to fight an insurance scam.

Snap photos from every angle of the involved vehicles, with special focus on the damage. Also, capture on camera the license plate, as well as photos of the driver all the passengers in the other vehicle.

Take copious notes, and record as much as you can of the following:

  • Driver license number.
  • Vehicle registration information.
  • Car insurance information.
  • Name, address, and phone number.
  • The general height and weight (as well as the ethnicity) of the other car's driver and passengers.
Also,
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if you suspect that you were in a staged accident.

Don’t ever settle on site with cash; always report the accident to your car insurance company, and let them know if you suspect a scam.

There are two ways to get hit by a car: accidentally and intentionally. The most common of the intentional kind is the fake Samaritan scam.

Here’s how it works: The con artist positions himself near a car that is currently stopped and which the driver is preparing to move– for example, in a supermarket parking lot. The fraudster looks for a driver getting ready to exit a parking spot. He approaches the car, waiting for the driver to see him and stop, at which point he waves the driver out of the spot. Once the driver starts to pull out, the scammer steps in front of the slow-moving vehicle and rolls across the hood or trunk.

These scammers often work in teams that include what appear to be unrelated witnesses who back up the scammer’s story that they never waved you on.

Your best offense in these cases is to play by the rules and call the police and an ambulance. The last thing most of these hustlers want is for the authorities to get involved. That’s because they’re hoping you simply pay them yourself in order to get them to go away.

A police investigation may turn up a history of being in similar accidents. An ambulance ride to the hospital will usually show that they have no injuries beyond a minor scrape or bruise. In most cases, even the mention of police is enough to get them to jump to their feet and say never mind.

None of that advice would be helpful in China.

Just to clarify further, I am not saying scams only happen in China. Of course they happen everywhere, no question about it. The point I'm trying to illustrate is how the Chinese handle these scams.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Yup, and the way they recommend handling these scams only serves to illustrate the differences:





None of that advice would be helpful in China.

Just to clarify further, I am not saying scams only happen in China. Of course they happen everywhere, no question about it. The point I'm trying to illustrate is how the Chinese handle these scams.

It could mean that the Chinese are simply not experienced enough yet. Motor vehicles only became popular in the past 10-15 years in China, whereas the US has been dealing with this kind of scams for over 100 years.

All in all, I'm still on the fence about the whole cultural difference thing. Deep down, we are all the same, Chinese, Americans, Australians, Germans, etc. The so-called cultural differences mean nothing when compared with the basic instincts as human. If you look back at the history of various supposedly distinct cultures, you will most likely find that they did and still do things in a similar fashion.

There may be some subtle differences, but they get drown out by the overwhelming behavior trends of being human. Even when you look at other animals, you will see very similar behavior. So all biological beings act in very similar fashion. This may be because we all evolved from similar or even same ancestry, which means we all share similar genetic make-up, which largely determines our physiology. As the chemical balance in our neurons determines our behavior, that means we are mostly the same.

The small subtle differences may exist when comparing two individuals. But it means next to nothing when we talk about how billions of people as a whole would behave.

Again, like I've said before, I think everything about China, especially the negative stuff, has been way over analyzed.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
From a western perspective, it is incomprehensible how these things are possible. How can you extort money from someone just by accusing them? How could you prove something that didn't happen?

Problem is, the Confucian concept of Justice, 义, does not depend on Truth. Instead, it depends on Compassion (仁) and Etiquette (礼). So the Chinese police, instead of trying to determine if you really pushed that old lady, would be more interested in "doing the right thing" by making you pay compensation.

Obviously, this causes a host of problems, including that infamous case where a little girl was run over by multiple cars and nobody lifted a finger to help.

So what's the solution?

Interesting that the police generally side with the injured party.

Over here, it is not uncommon for the hard core protester to deliberately put a foot out in front of a slow moving police car for it to run over and making the most of the situation afterwards.
I wonder how the chinese police would react if people started doing that.?
 
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