Chinese Cultural Discussions

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advill

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Very interesting discussions on Chinese Culture, and we also should include Indian, Japanese and other sub-cultures in an "Asian Cultural" Thread if possible. It's only thru' understanding various cultures including philosophes and religious beliefs that we hope to respect each other. Every culture, beliefs and people have strong and weak points. Example was Hitler's (WW II) dogma of "blond Germans" belonging to a superior race. This was disgusting, debunked and destroyed. Now we are seeing other dogmas, doctrines (like the fanatical ISIS) and ideologies being promoted. Disappointing and sad, as arrogance & false pride will lead to nowhere but eventual calamities & destructions as we see happening today in the M.E. etc.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
solarz said:
Anyway, back on topic, my point was that in the west, Religion is the moral framework of many people. In contrast, the moral framework of the vast majority of Chinese is based on Confucianism, and religion plays a very minor role, if any.

So when western writers talk about the state of religion in China, they are often taking the point of view that a lack of religious prominence is reflective of a lack of moral values. This could not be further from the truth, as they are completely ignoring the omnipresence of Confucian and traditional values.
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Different starting point and foundation to base off moral viewpoints. It is reflective of development path. I think what is helpful if the intention is to discuss Chinese culture, the focus should be reflection on where things are today in China and a discussion on how things have evolved in a more modern and materialistic environment.

Rather than talk about what the west thinks and their lack of understanding of how Confucianism provides that moral framework, I suggest maybe the conversation should focus on how in fact Confucianism is providing that underlying moral framework particularly in the present and modern society.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
advill said:
Very interesting discussions on Chinese Culture, and we also should include Indian, Japanese and other sub-cultures in an "Asian Cultural" Thread if possible. It's only thru' understanding various cultures including philosophes and religious beliefs that we hope to respect each other. Every culture, beliefs and people have strong and weak points. Example was Hitler's (WW II) dogma of "blond Germans" belonging to a superior race. This was disgusting, debunked and destroyed. Now we are seeing other dogmas, doctrines (like the fanatical ISIS) and ideologies being promoted. Disappointing and sad, as arrogance & false pride will lead to nowhere but eventual calamities & destructions as we see happening today in the M.E. etc.
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I suggest you create your own thread and start the discussions there rather than derail this thread. Given what you have written, your thread is likely to get shut down pretty quickly.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Brumby said:
Different starting point and foundation to base off moral viewpoints. It is reflective of development path. I think what is helpful if the intention is to discuss Chinese culture, the focus should be reflection on where things are today in China and a discussion on how things have evolved in a more modern and materialistic environment.

Rather than talk about what the west thinks and their lack of understanding of how Confucianism provides that moral framework, I suggest maybe the conversation should focus on how in fact Confucianism is providing that underlying moral framework particularly in the present and modern society.
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The problem with Confucianism, as I see it, is that it is dogmatically ingrained in the psyche of Chinese culture. By that I mean both the good and the bad. Confucius first formulated his philosophy 2500 years ago. It should be obvious that while much of it will always be relevant, there are some aspects (such as the role of women, and filial piety taken too far) that should be discarded in a 21st century society.

Unfortunately, this isn't happening. Though the Cultural Revolution was a tremendously destructive period in modern Chinese history, it did have the positive aspect of "burning" away the old feudal mindset. Unfortunately, it seems that this was only a temporary state, as many of those feudal mindsets are returning.
 
SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
solarz said:
The problem with Confucianism, as I see it, is that it is dogmatically ingrained in the psyche of Chinese culture. By that I mean both the good and the bad. Confucius first formulated his philosophy 2500 years ago. It should be obvious that while much of it will always be relevant, there are some aspects (such as the role of women, and filial piety taken too far) that should be discarded in a 21st century society.

Unfortunately, this isn't happening. Though the Cultural Revolution was a tremendously destructive period in modern Chinese history, it did have the positive aspect of "burning" away the old feudal mindset. Unfortunately, it seems that this was only a temporary state, as many of those feudal mindsets are returning.
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I agree in most parts, I would add in Confucianism there is another flaw or should I say loop hole in a hierarchical state where higher status in society equates to being a better person and that the lower status people should follow the example of a person at a higher status.
In Japan although we had adopted many of Confucianism teaching this part was interpreted differently teaching that a person at a higher level requires to always be a role model to the people below needing to self restrain any bad habits and to look after the ones below their status.
Unfortunately I do not see this kind of thought process within present Chinese society.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
solarz said:
The problem with Confucianism, as I see it, is that it is dogmatically ingrained in the psyche of Chinese culture. By that I mean both the good and the bad. Confucius first formulated his philosophy 2500 years ago. It should be obvious that while much of it will always be relevant, there are some aspects (such as the role of women, and filial piety taken too far) that should be discarded in a 21st century society.
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I note with interest your reference to "filial" and its questionable role in the 21st century. The notion of being filial and that concept in a Chinese family unit is a basic trait that gels the family structure and the relationship between family members for centuries. I believe it is a fundamental offshoot of Confucianism and basic to Chinese culture and in my view without an equivalent in western values. It defines parent children relationship; marriage arrangements; and the respective roles of sons and daughters within the family structure. I think it is significant enough to spend some time discussing it because it is an important piece of Chinese culture and how this concept sits in the 21st century.

I will provide some initial views but this is clearly open for discussions to others which will their own perspective of its relevance. There are generally three phases of our life cycle, i.e. childhood; adulthood; and seniorhood. In childhood, the family relationship is pretty much dictated by the head of the family. The transition to adulthood is a period of tension and conflict between the need to assert independence but having to deal with parental control including profession and marriages and the notion of having to be filial in any conflict resolution. The question is this still a significant issue within Chinese culture because it is so embedded or has this dissipated in the modern age? Finally in seniorhood, it is generally expected in Chinese culture that the children will care for the aged parents because it is a duty embedded within the meaning of being filial. There was a recent published data on end of life care in Australia that 2/3 of the respondents preferred to die at home than in palliative care or in hospital. This is often not possible for various reasons but one of it being lack of family structure to provide that care. The Australian government recognises the importance of such a structure in aged and end of life care and is prepared to divert funds to make it more feasible because fiscally it is cheaper than hospital care. One psychological issue in senior years is a sense of lack of security and having a supporting family structure addresses that insecurity. A traditional Chinese family structure in the past reflects the virtue of parental care more so than a corresponding western equivalent because of the concept of being filial. Has this changed or is it still relevant in the modern age in the Chinese culture?
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Brumby said:
I note with interest your reference to "filial" and its questionable role in the 21st century. The notion of being filial and that concept in a Chinese family unit is a basic trait that gels the family structure and the relationship between family members for centuries. I believe it is a fundamental offshoot of Confucianism and basic to Chinese culture and in my view without an equivalent in western values. It defines parent children relationship; marriage arrangements; and the respective roles of sons and daughters within the family structure. I think it is significant enough to spend some time discussing it because it is an important piece of Chinese culture and how this concept sits in the 21st century.

I will provide some initial views but this is clearly open for discussions to others which will their own perspective of its relevance. There are generally three phases of our life cycle, i.e. childhood; adulthood; and seniorhood. In childhood, the family relationship is pretty much dictated by the head of the family. The transition to adulthood is a period of tension and conflict between the need to assert independence but having to deal with parental control including profession and marriages and the notion of having to be filial in any conflict resolution. The question is this still a significant issue within Chinese culture because it is so embedded or has this dissipated in the modern age? Finally in seniorhood, it is generally expected in Chinese culture that the children will care for the aged parents because it is a duty embedded within the meaning of being filial. There was a recent published data on end of life care in Australia that 2/3 of the respondents preferred to die at home than in palliative care or in hospital. This is often not possible for various reasons but one of it being lack of family structure to provide that care. The Australian government recognises the importance of such a structure in aged and end of life care and is prepared to divert funds to make it more feasible because fiscally it is cheaper than hospital care. One psychological issue in senior years is a sense of lack of security and having a supporting family structure addresses that insecurity. A traditional Chinese family structure in the past reflects the virtue of parental care more so than a corresponding western equivalent because of the concept of being filial. Has this changed or is it still relevant in the modern age in the Chinese culture?
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I agree that the notion of filial piety is a salient characteristic of Chinese culture, and I believe it is a largely positive value. However, there are some aspects of it that I believe is a relic of the feudal era.

The problem, as I see it, with traditional notions of filial piety is that it offers the child no way of expressing their own values and desires. Filial piety dictates that the child must subsume their own interests and put the interests of their parents above all.

Here's an excerpt that illustrates my point:

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Chapter 1 On Being Filial at Home
　　Chapter 1 At Home, Be Dutiful to My Parents

　　父母呼。应勿缓。
　　When your mother or father is calling, do not be slow to respond.
　　When my parents call me, I will answer them right away.
　　父母命。行勿懒。
　　When your parents tell you to do something, do not be lazy or sulky.
　　When they ask me to do something, I will do it quickly.
　　父母教。须敬听。
　　When your parents need to instruct you, you should listen with patient respect.
　　When my parents instruct you, I will listen respectfully.
　　父母责。须顺承。
　　Whenever your parents must scold you, accept it with faithful compliance.
　　When my parents reproach me, I will obey and accept their scolding. I will try hard
　　to change and improve myself, to start anew.
　　冬则温。夏则凊。
　　In the winter, make sure they are warm. in the summer, make sure they are cool. in
　　the winter, I will keep my parents warm; in the summer, I will keep your parents
　　cool.
　　晨则省。昏则定。
　　In the morning, cheerfully greet them. in the evening, tell them “Good night.”
　　I will always greet my parents in the morning to show them that I care.
　　At night I will always make sure my parents rest well.
　　出必告。反必面。
　　If you plan to go out, tell your parents. report to them when you get back.
　　Before going out, I must tell my parents where I am going, for parents are always
　　concerned about their children.
　　After returning home, I must go and see my parents to let them know I am back, so
　　they do not worry about me.
　　居有常。业无变。
　　Settle down in one certain place. do not switch from one job to another.
　　I will maintain a permanent place to stay and lead a routine life.
　　I will persist in whatever I do and will not change my aspirations at will.
　　事虽小。勿擅为。
　　No matter how small the affair, do not act just as you please.
　　A matter might be trivial, but if it is wrong to do it or unfair to the other person, I must not do it thinking it will bear little or no consequence.
　　苟擅为。子道亏。
　　For if you act just as you please, then you have not performed as you should.
　　If I do, I am not being a dutiful child because my parents would not want to see me
　　doing things that are irrational or illegal.
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This is something that is actually being taught in schools right now in China. The first time I read this, my reaction can be summed up in 3 letters: WTF.

I certainly was never taught anything like this when I was in school in China in the 80's. Back then, such beliefs were strongly condemned. It just boggles my mind that it is now being taught to kids.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
solarz said:
The problem, as I see it, with traditional notions of filial piety is that it offers the child no way of expressing their own values and desires. Filial piety dictates that the child must subsume their own interests and put the interests of their parents above all.
Click to expand...

What is wrong with putting your parent's interest above your own? Sometimes tough choices are required including foregoing your own desires?

solarz said:
This is something that is actually being taught in schools right now in China. The first time I read this, my reaction can be summed up in 3 letters: WTF.

I certainly was never taught anything like this when I was in school in China in the 80's. Back then, such beliefs were strongly condemned. It just boggles my mind that it is now being taught to kids.
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What is wrong with all of that? If you put on the shoes of a parent, I think they would agree that they want their kids to be well behaved; be obedient; honour them; and take care of them when they are in need. Wouldn't it be good thing to teach the children good values when they are still young?
 
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