Chinese Cultural Discussions

I think that as human beings, we all try to judge others based on what we ourselves understand. As it happens, the role of religion in China is very, very different from the role it plays in western culture.

All western articles I have read evaluating the presence (or lack) of spirituality in China is based on western perceptions of spirituality and religion. In the west, religion is a part of one's self-identity. One identifies as a Christian, a Muslim, or an Atheist.

In China, religion is much more low key. People believe in Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, or even "all of the above" or "none of the above". Other aspects of their identity are much more prominent.

solarz said:

I think that as human beings, we all try to judge others based on what we ourselves understand. As it happens, the role of religion in China is very, very different from the role it plays in western culture.

All western articles I have read evaluating the presence (or lack) of spirituality in China is based on western perceptions of spirituality and religion. In the west, religion is a part of one's self-identity. One identifies as a Christian, a Muslim, or an Atheist.

In China, religion is much more low key. People believe in Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, or even "all of the above" or "none of the above". Other aspects of their identity are much more prominent.

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From my personal experience people's expression of religion in China is more akin to personal philosophies which also have social and organizational aspects, in that order of importance, rather than in the West it seems the order of importance of those aspects are reversed.

solarz said:

I think that as human beings, we all try to judge others based on what we ourselves understand. As it happens, the role of religion in China is very, very different from the role it plays in western culture.

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It is important to remember that the official position in China is atheistic and this invariably has an influence on people's behaviour especially overtly. What I suspect what is considered religious with the Chinese is in effect a set of beliefs borne out of tradition that has been passed down from generation. Typically it is a set of mixed beliefs influenced by Buddhism and Taoism combined with traditional practices.

solarz said:

All western articles I have read evaluating the presence (or lack) of spirituality in China is based on western perceptions of spirituality and religion. In the west, religion is a part of one's self-identity. One identifies as a Christian, a Muslim, or an Atheist.

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I think there is a misconception here between religion, spirituality and beliefs. The whole purpose of each religious worldview in the world is meant to address three broad existential question :
1)Where do we come from;
2)The meaning and purpose of life; and
3)Life after death
In attempting to differentiate between religion and traditional beliefs and sense of identification it is important to understand our frame of reference. It is not about western perception but is of an existential nature regardless of race.

solarz said:

In China, religion is much more low key. People believe in Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, or even "all of the above" or "none of the above". Other aspects of their identity are much more prominent.

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Being a Christian and a Chinese brought up with traditional Buddhist/Taoist background, the one salient point I can add to this conversation is how religious beliefs, tradition and by extension family (including extended family) relationship is intertwined. There is invariably conflict and tension when confronted with choices alien to the traditional beliefs because of its impact on identity and family relationship.

Brumby said:

I think there is a misconception here between religion, spirituality and beliefs. The whole purpose of each religious worldview in the world is meant to address three broad existential question :
1)Where do we come from;
2)The meaning and purpose of life; and
3)Life after death

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Among my Buddhist and atheist friends, and I believe you can include the Mainland Chinese, we hardly discuss those subjects unlike Christians. We live life as given my our parents to our fullest individual capability.

t2contra said:

Among my Buddhist and atheist friends, and I believe you can include the Mainland Chinese, we hardly discuss those subjects unlike Christians. We live life as given my our parents to our fullest individual capability.

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I think you are stating the obvious. Atheist don't discuss those subjects because they don't believe in them, that life is about the present and death puts an end to it. Buddhist views life as meaningless and suffering and is just a continuous stream of consciousness until enlightenment. Any conversation with a Buddhist is of a different emphasis until you understand their underlying beliefs of Karma and Nirvana and how much of that is build-in into the conversation. I would venture to say that many Buddhist don't even understand the difference between rebirth and reincarnation even though they might profess they are Buddhist.

Brumby said:

I think you are stating the obvious. Atheist don't discuss those subjects because they don't believe in them, that life is about the present and death puts an end to it. Buddhist views life as meaningless and suffering and is just a continuous stream of consciousness until enlightenment. Any conversation with a Buddhist is of a different emphasis until you understand their underlying beliefs of Karma and Nirvana and how much of that is build-in into the conversation. I would venture to say that many Buddhist don't even understand the difference between rebirth and reincarnation even though they might profess they are Buddhist.

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Actually, Chinese believers of Buddhism, as with any other religion, is primarily concerned with the blessing and protection of various gods. Chinese Buddhists pray to Guanyin for blessing, Christians to God, Taoists to some dude with a long beard, and everyone prays to Guan Gong for wealth and fortune.

So the foremost aspect of religious beliefs in China is based on material pursuit. On the other hand, the most important aspect of religion in the west is to form a basis for morality. This, I believe, is the fundamental difference between the role religion plays in the two cultures.

Look at how important religious belief is in discussions of abortion, homosexuality, sex education, and even evolution. In contrast, the vast majority of Chinese will never refer to religious beliefs when it comes to morality. Instead, the focus will be almost entirely on Confucian values (which, despite certain claims to the contrary, is certainly not a religion).

And this is where most western articles get things wrong. They equate the lack of a central and prominent religion in China to a lack of moral values.

solarz said:

Actually, Chinese believers of Buddhism, as with any other religion, is primarily concerned with the blessing and protection of various gods. Chinese Buddhists pray to Guanyin for blessing, Christians to God, Taoists to some dude with a long beard, and everyone prays to Guan Gong for wealth and fortune.

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Buddhism as a state religion didn't really last that long. That is one of the reasons why Japan stopped sending people to learn in China. That was 894 AD.
The Chinese belief system is actually a mash of various religion,Nestorianism Christianity(景教） reached around 800 AD as well as Muslim（回教）. Then there is old Confucianism which used to be the back bone of Chinese society which intermixed with Taoism.
Taoism to my understanding is the harmonious way of Yin and Yan. The understanding of the balance of various forces. The master becomes a Xian and all Taoist ultimate goal is to become one.
So no Chinese religion is not about blessing and protection of various gods. Far from it. Actual practitioner of these religion believes the requirement for material objects hampers their beliefs.

Any and all religion is about moral values. It's just that many people falls prey to their inner greed and can't follow their beliefs no matter how much faith they have in them.

solarz said:

Actually, Chinese believers of Buddhism, as with any other religion, is primarily concerned with the blessing and protection of various gods. Chinese Buddhists pray to Guanyin for blessing, Christians to God, Taoists to some dude with a long beard, and everyone prays to Guan Gong for wealth and fortune.

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I am glad you brought up a number of variations within the Chinese belief system because it highlights the fusion and misconception of where things lie over time.

Buddhism actually originates from India and itself is an offshoot of Hinduism. Principally, Buddha did not agree to the concept of reincarnation but in rebirth. This distinction has to do with the concept of impermanence in Buddhism and the nature of a soul as in reincarnation. When you talked about Guanyin as in Buddhism, I believe herein lies the fusion of Buddhism into Chinese beliefs and also confusion with time. Guanyin is part of Chinese mythology and is not Buddhism. It is insightful to note how this fusion has perpetuated because if you had watched the movie Monkey God starring Donnie Yen, there is a scene of the Jade Emperor in heaven (Chinese mythology), Guanyin (Chinese mythology) and Buddha but it appears that both of them are subservient to Buddha. Separate to that you then have a whole host of historical characters that are sanctified and worship as god, like Guan Gong (typically police and triads), Wong Tai Sin and the 8 immortals et al. I agree that generally they are worship for blessings but without any foundational understanding. Chinese people worship and are bound to many things including Feng Sui. However I personally view this practices as some traditional hard coded belief system rather than a religious worldview based on the three existential reasons I outlined. Take for example, traditional Chinese beliefs talk of the 18 levels of hell but Buddhism does not have a concept of hell and there is no soul to be tormented in hell. I don't think some of the incoherency Chinese people generally understands between Buddhism and Chinese beliefs.

solarz said:

So the foremost aspect of religious beliefs in China is based on material pursuit. On the other hand, the most important aspect of religion in the west is to form a basis for morality. This, I believe, is the fundamental difference between the role religion plays in the two cultures.

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The material pursuit you mentioned is the end point and whatever means necessary including worshipping this long bearded dude as the means if deemed necessary. It is an atheistic view foremost (emphasis on present) rather than a religious view (instead of after life). The concept of morality in the West is not necessarily religiously driven because there is the perennial debate between the atheist and theist on whether there can be such thing as objective morality outside of God. However objective morality by definition is impossible without God as best illustrated by the Euthyphro paradox "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

solarz said:

Look at how important religious belief is in discussions of abortion, homosexuality, sex education, and even evolution. In contrast, the vast majority of Chinese will never refer to religious beliefs when it comes to morality. Instead, the focus will be almost entirely on Confucian values (which, despite certain claims to the contrary, is certainly not a religion).

And this is where most western articles get things wrong. They equate the lack of a central and prominent religion in China to a lack of moral values.

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The problem when you get to hot topics like abortion and homosexuality, people are very opinionated because of personal beliefs rather than some form of objective measure to make decision and choices. In a Christian world view, the fundamental tenet is that we are created in His image, sanctified and unique in His sight - just like each individual finger print is unique out of the billions of people. Life is sacred even for an unborn child. Abortion violates that very sanctity of life. As Christians, we are guided by that principle in terms of the morality of that choice. In a cannibalistic society, they might eat the babies according to their code on morality. The morality between a meal and sanctity will always be guided by something. The question is what?

Brumby said:

I am glad you brought up a number of variations within the Chinese belief system because it highlights the fusion and misconception of where things lie over time.

Buddhism actually originates from India and itself is an offshoot of Hinduism. Principally, Buddha did not agree to the concept of reincarnation but in rebirth. This distinction has to do with the concept of impermanence in Buddhism and the nature of a soul as in reincarnation. When you talked about Guanyin as in Buddhism, I believe herein lies the fusion of Buddhism into Chinese beliefs and also confusion with time. Guanyin is part of Chinese mythology and is not Buddhism. It is insightful to note how this fusion has perpetuated because if you had watched the movie Monkey God starring Donnie Yen, there is a scene of the Jade Emperor in heaven (Chinese mythology), Guanyin (Chinese mythology) and Buddha but it appears that both of them are subservient to Buddha.

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This is the first time I've heard claim that Guanyin is not a part of Buddhism. I think you may have gotten your facts mixed up:

Brumby said:

Buddhism actually originates from India and itself is an offshoot of Hinduism.

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Sorry but Buddhism is older than Hindu. Hindu is an offshoot of Brahmanism which started around 500BC. Buddhism started around 200BC. Buddhism and Brahmanism both believed in life reincarnation due to Karma. the difference is Buddhism don't believe in the cast system and believe they all are Sramana.