Chinese Cultural Discussions

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SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Brumby said:
I believe it is a fundamental offshoot of Confucianism and basic to Chinese culture and in my view without an equivalent in western values. It defines parent children relationship; marriage arrangements; and the respective roles of sons and daughters within the family structure. I think it is significant enough to spend some time discussing it because it is an important piece of Chinese culture and how this concept sits in the 21st century.
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Not really if you watch the movie "the Godfather" and the relationship that is depicted of the mafia.
 
Ultra

Ultra

Junior Member
solarz said:
The problem with Confucianism, as I see it, is that it is dogmatically ingrained in the psyche of Chinese culture. By that I mean both the good and the bad. Confucius first formulated his philosophy 2500 years ago. It should be obvious that while much of it will always be relevant, there are some aspects (such as the role of women, and filial piety taken too far) that should be discarded in a 21st century society.

Unfortunately, this isn't happening. Though the Cultural Revolution was a tremendously destructive period in modern Chinese history, it did have the positive aspect of "burning" away the old feudal mindset. Unfortunately, it seems that this was only a temporary state, as many of those feudal mindsets are returning.
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Could you elaborate on that? What's bad about Confucianism and that it is returning?



Brumby said:
I note with interest your reference to "filial" and its questionable role in the 21st century. The notion of being filial and that concept in a Chinese family unit is a basic trait that gels the family structure and the relationship between family members for centuries. I believe it is a fundamental offshoot of Confucianism and basic to Chinese culture and in my view without an equivalent in western values. It defines parent children relationship; marriage arrangements; and the respective roles of sons and daughters within the family structure. I think it is significant enough to spend some time discussing it because it is an important piece of Chinese culture and how this concept sits in the 21st century.

I will provide some initial views but this is clearly open for discussions to others which will their own perspective of its relevance. There are generally three phases of our life cycle, i.e. childhood; adulthood; and seniorhood. In childhood, the family relationship is pretty much dictated by the head of the family. The transition to adulthood is a period of tension and conflict between the need to assert independence but having to deal with parental control including profession and marriages and the notion of having to be filial in any conflict resolution. The question is this still a significant issue within Chinese culture because it is so embedded or has this dissipated in the modern age? Finally in seniorhood, it is generally expected in Chinese culture that the children will care for the aged parents because it is a duty embedded within the meaning of being filial. There was a recent published data on end of life care in Australia that 2/3 of the respondents preferred to die at home than in palliative care or in hospital. This is often not possible for various reasons but one of it being lack of family structure to provide that care. The Australian government recognises the importance of such a structure in aged and end of life care and is prepared to divert funds to make it more feasible because fiscally it is cheaper than hospital care. One psychological issue in senior years is a sense of lack of security and having a supporting family structure addresses that insecurity. A traditional Chinese family structure in the past reflects the virtue of parental care more so than a corresponding western equivalent because of the concept of being filial. Has this changed or is it still relevant in the modern age in the Chinese culture?
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SamuraiBlue wasn't talking about filial piety - I think he is talking about senpai & kohai relationship. In Japan, the "elder" or senior person (senpai) will assume the position of responsibility to take care the people of junior position (kohai) - in return the junior offers respect to the senpai. The relationship is not merely within the family or extended family - it extends far beyond that - in work place, or in school - even extends to complete strangers. This is most apparent in South Korea where an elder can scald a and even command a person (who is a complete stranger) junior in age to them.

I think this level of Confucianism integration has its advantage and disadvantages - the advantage is society that adopts this level of Confucianism is more socially cohesive, people care more about one and another and society is more unified. Example being Japanese CEOs who resisted mass layoffs because they felt responsible for the lives of those under his command and made the whole company suffered for it - this happened a lot during the early 90s when Japanese economy bubbled and burst. Most of the western CEOs wouldn't think twice for this kind of things and mass layoff happens regularly and the western CEOs are rewarded for it.

On the downside, because the senpai are often being the respected - their action are often not questioned because to question their action is a sign of disrespect. This often leads to bad decision making as the smarter but younger "kohai" are afraid to speak their mind.

China in this respect is completely non-existant - they only extends the respect to their own family members (sometimes not even that as generation of "little emperors and empresses" grown up - I have seen with my own eyes how young people who are often rude to older people even their own family - my sister-in-law being one of them). Selfishness, Me-first or Me-only seems to be what they believe.

This is going to be a huge problem in the future especially in time of war - where you will have a an army of cowards who will only think about their own survival because they are a generation of the "only child" and they cannot afford to die on battlefield or else their elderly parents and grandparents will have nobody to take care of them.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
Ultra said:
SamuraiBlue wasn't talking about filial piety - I think he is talking about senpai & kohai relationship. In Japan, the "elder" or senior person (senpai) will assume the position of responsibility to take care the people of junior position (kohai) - in return the junior offers respect to the senpai. The relationship is not merely within the family or extended family - it extends far beyond that - in work place, or in school - even extends to complete strangers. This is most apparent in South Korea where an elder can scald a and even command a person (who is a complete stranger) junior in age to them.

I think this level of Confucianism integration has its advantage and disadvantages - the advantage is society that adopts this level of Confucianism is more socially cohesive, people care more about one and another and society is more unified. Example being Japanese CEOs who resisted mass layoffs because they felt responsible for the lives of those under his command and made the whole company suffered for it - this happened a lot during the early 90s when Japanese economy bubbled and burst. Most of the western CEOs wouldn't think twice for this kind of things and mass layoff happens regularly and the western CEOs are rewarded for it.

On the downside, because the senpai are often being the respected - their action are often not questioned because to question their action is a sign of disrespect. This often leads to bad decision making as the smarter but younger "kohai" are afraid to speak their mind.
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Thanks for clarifying and making that distinction. I think even in the Chinese model and family structure relationship, if the head of the family makes decisions that are seen to be in the interest of the family members then it is more likely than not that there will be less tension. If the decisions are more self directed than there is likely to be conflict within the family. I would suspect that in the modern Chinese family model, the relationship is less rigid and that parents are more accommodative in allowing for a two way communication rather than the traditional one way traffic that doesn't accommodate different view points. Does other see this happening more often than not in China today?

Ultra said:
China in this respect is completely non-existant - they only extends the respect to their own family members (sometimes not even that as generation of "little emperors and empresses" grown up - I have seen with my own eyes how young people who are often rude to older people even their own family - my sister-in-law being one of them). Selfishness, Me-first or Me-only seems to be what they believe.
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The one child policy might have actually inversed the traditional relationship in that the child has more say than the parents and that family decisions are modelled around the child. Instead of the traditional respect and honour towards the parents and elders, this concept might be less understood by the child and can generate behaviour in a child that doesn't respect that hierarchical relationship. I think it is a problem but not sure how widespread is it today in China. Does anyone wish to comment?

Ultra said:
This is going to be a huge problem in the future especially in time of war - where you will have a an army of cowards who will only think about their own survival because they are a generation of the "only child" and they cannot afford to die on battlefield or else their elderly parents and grandparents will have nobody to take care of them.
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Let's not go there because those who enrol in the army would also have a sense of duty and honour in discharging their obligations when they signed up.

However you did bring up a related issue that has troubled me for some time in terms of a social issue and how the concept of being filial will be met. In view of the one child policy and a progressively aging population, there will be a time where the only child has to take on the burden of having aging parents and all that comes with it. When you have a large family, the burden can be shared across but with one child there is really no option. Is this issue already a problem today in China?.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Brumby said:
What is wrong with putting your parent's interest above your own? Sometimes tough choices are required including foregoing your own desires?
What is wrong with all of that? If you put on the shoes of a parent, I think they would agree that they want their kids to be well behaved; be obedient; honour them; and take care of them when they are in need. Wouldn't it be good thing to teach the children good values when they are still young?
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I don't dispute that many Chinese parents would think of these values as good, but I do not.

I would not want my child to grow up obedient, I want him to be able to make his own choices. I don't want him to honor me through a decree, I want to earn his respect by being a good role model. While I would certainly appreciate his help when I am in need, I recognize that my old age is ultimately my own responsibility. I expect my wife to be there for me in my old age, as I would also be there for her. I do not have this kind of expectation toward my son.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Brumby said:
The one child policy might have actually inversed the traditional relationship in that the child has more say than the parents and that family decisions are modelled around the child. Instead of the traditional respect and honour towards the parents and elders, this concept might be less understood by the child and can generate behaviour in a child that doesn't respect that hierarchical relationship. I think it is a problem but not sure how widespread is it today in China. Does anyone wish to comment?
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There is no need to speculate on the consequences of China's family-planning policy. It was first implemented in the 80's, which means those affected are now in their 30's, and have been in the work force for quite a few years.

So we really don't need to look further than the state of China today to see the overall consequences of the policy.

I would like to point out that currently, those experiencing the most problems with their parents right now is not the "little emperor" generation, it's the boomer generation.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
solarz said:
I don't dispute that many Chinese parents would think of these values as good, but I do not.
I would not want my child to grow up obedient, I want him to be able to make his own choices. I don't want him to honor me through a decree, I want to earn his respect by being a good role model.
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The issue of asserting independence while being respectful is generally the main tension and there is no easy answer or right solution. I think in modern Chinese families, stance from both ends have moderated as opposed to the more rigid model in a traditional setting. I am assuming this is reasonably representative even in China today.

Having the freedom to express and make choices rather than being dictated to is an intrinsic human expectation because we are after all moral agents and not moral patients unlike animals.
solarz said:
While I would certainly appreciate his help when I am in need, I recognize that my old age is ultimately my own responsibility. I expect my wife to be there for me in my old age, as I would also be there for her. I do not have this kind of expectation toward my son.
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Based on your statement and the above, do you think the meaning of being filial is somewhat changing in China or is it just a minority viewpoint?

solarz said:
There is no need to speculate on the consequences of China's family-planning policy. It was first implemented in the 80's, which means those affected are now in their 30's, and have been in the work force for quite a few years.

So we really don't need to look further than the state of China today to see the overall consequences of the policy.

I would like to point out that currently, those experiencing the most problems with their parents right now is not the "little emperor" generation, it's the boomer generation.
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Implicit in your statements, there are a different set of problems arising. Would you like to elaborate. The one area that immediately comes to mind is the synthetic skew of boys/girls ratio creating a shortage of girls and prospective partner.
 
C

counterprime

New Member
Registered Member
Overall, I see filial piety as a more humane social model than what I often see in the west.

Here are the problems that I do see with filial piety:
1. dependence and weakness
2. less independent thought
3. too nice - especially to enemies

Crudely speaking within the family, the west uses "trial by fire" and China uses "hand holding".
In the public, the roles seem reversed. The west has is stifled by political correctness and "everyone is a winner" whereas China goes too hardcore with school.

The western model produces a large variation in outcomes due to individualism. The Chinese model produces a narrower range of outcomes constrained by responsibility and pragmatism.

The CCP could widen the variations by making risk-taking less dangerous such as providing a strong socialist support (not blind and extravagant welfare, but a "parasite-proof" support system)

If I ran the country, I would push a secondary belief system beside Confucianism as prescribed by Deng Xiaoping, "seek truth from facts".

Rationalism + (most) Confucian morals + meritocracy = win.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Brumby said:
The issue of asserting independence while being respectful is generally the main tension and there is no easy answer or right solution. I think in modern Chinese families, stance from both ends have moderated as opposed to the more rigid model in a traditional setting. I am assuming this is reasonably representative even in China today.

Having the freedom to express and make choices rather than being dictated to is an intrinsic human expectation because we are after all moral agents and not moral patients unlike animals.

Based on your statement and the above, do you think the meaning of being filial is somewhat changing in China or is it just a minority viewpoint?

Implicit in your statements, there are a different set of problems arising. Would you like to elaborate. The one area that immediately comes to mind is the synthetic skew of boys/girls ratio creating a shortage of girls and prospective partner.
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What I see is a conflict between expectation and reality. For the boomers, their responsibility toward their parents is conflicting with their perceived need to help out their child financially. As a result, even though boomers have many siblings, each sibling is busy with their own family, and inevitably conflicts arise about each sibling's contribution toward the care of their parents.

The reason for this, as I see it, is a conflict within the Confucian dogma itself. There are two phrases that come to mind:

1- 百善孝为先 -- Filial piety is the source of all good deeds.
2- 不孝有三无后为大 -- Three instances demonstrate a lack of filial piety. The most important is the lack of offspring.

The first phrase tells people that care for one's parents is the most important thing for a moral person. The second phrase says that the best way to care for one's parents is to have children.

2000 years ago, this might not have been a problem, as kids became self-sufficient at 15 years old, and the elderly died at 60 years of age. In the 21st century, where education demands means young adults are dependent on financial assistance well into their 20's, and the elderly commonly live to 80 years or more, this kind of dogma is placing heavy strain on people's financial situations.
 
A

advill

Junior Member
Those who understand Chinese Culture will acknowledge it existed long before any others. It emphasises filial piety etc. But Cultural Values can undergo some changes due to environmental factors. Confucianism which is Chinese has been adopted by most Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans etc. Their basic values are similar, but unfortunately brashness & disrespect for elders etc. have crept in, and are trying to influence these old cultural values. Some of such Western cultural influences would not work with the Chinese or those subscribing to Confucianism. Modernisation does not mean "ape-ing" others.
 
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