Chinese Aviation Industry

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
The question arose from 929 thread on what COMAC should be building. I think to start off, we have to think about demand from the Chinese carriers.
This post is NOT a direct reply to the above, I've just used the quote to put it in general context on what's COMAC building for the future.

I believe there's a fair likelihood that even the people within COMAC, and people within Chinese government can't agree on what China should be investing its money in - and what sort of planes might be needed in what numbers to which users in China, and users outside China.

Basically, we lack answers to the following questions:

- To which degree are the planes Chinese commercial aircraft sector is building/designing meant for domestic airlines and for foreign airlines?

- How are those future planes going to be sold and marketed? Will they come with no government subsidies? Or with heavy government subsidies? As we've seen, even somewhat limited government subsidies in the shape of tax breaks and special loans that Boeing/Airbus got resulted in political friction. One can imagine a situation in the current geopolitical climate if any sort of substantial subsidies are applied to Chinese made planes. It could lead to a chain of political events where such planes are simply not bought by airlines outside China.

- Even with some subsidies, to what degree and within what timeframe would Chinese made planes be commercially sound investments to foreign airlines? The data for narrowbodies from 2018 suggests aircraft costs are a fairly minor part of overall cost of operating a plane. Let's take 737-800 for example, a fairly modern but not cutting edge narrowbody. In aircraft per seat per mile costs said plane costs 46 cents, while the overall operating costs per seat per mile are 671 cents. So not even 10 percent of the cost is the plane itself. Crew costs 175 cents. Fuel costs 275 cents. Maintenance costs 126 cents and other non published costs make up the remaining 48 cents. Part of the maintenance costs would likely go to the plane's manufacturer, of course. But still most of those would likely not, as they're subject to hourly wages of domestic maintenance workers.
Another way to calculate costs is by block hours of actual usage.
The same B737-800 costs $299 per block hour. Crew costs $1139 and fuel costs $1787 per hour. Maintenance is up at $816 and the remaining costs are $315. Overall cost per block hour is $4355, which means plane costs are again well under 10 percent, closer to 5 percent.

Given such cost distribution - it's possible that even if the Chinese government would subsidize the entire plane and even if COMAC would be giving them for free - it's still possible that airlines would not be buying them unless they were sufficiently advanced that they keep some of the other expenses down.
Certainly fuel expenses are the most problematic. Without a cutting edge engine, most airplanes fail on the market. Leap-1A, in practice, shows some 9 to 10 percent reduction over CFM56-5B used on many airbus a320.
So fuel savings from the engine alone, over previous generation may amount to 27 cents per ASM. Which is over 58 percent of the cost of the plane itself.
Weight and aerodynamics of the plane can also influence fuel consumption. Unless they're cutting edge, planes with previous generation of design/construction may suffer additional 5 to 10% of fuel consumption penalty.
New planes and engines also strive to have lower maintenance costs.

Basically - if foreign sourced engines such as LEAP-1 are not available to Chinese narrowbodies, and if larger engines of similar tech level aren't available to future Chinese widebodies, such Chinese planes would most likely simply be uncompetitive, no matter the subsidy. Subsidies would likely not even be worth it, as they might/would incur additional wider political fallout.

For now, C919 has access to LEAP1. But in current geopolitical climate, that might change in an instant. I actually believe chances are higher that said engine licence will be revoked than not in the next 3 years. (despite all and any countermeasures China would do if that happens) but that's NOT the point of this post and I'd not want to discuss it further.
The bottom line is - domestic engines for both C919 and any future planes are an absolute necessity. But ones that are almost fully competitive with what the western engine makers are offering. Some slightly worse performance may be acceptable, if the price of the overall plane allows it - but they would still have to be almost on par. Same goes for the overall design and quality of aerodynamic solutions on the planes themselves.

One could even argue that the competitiveness would have to be even better, if planes are to sell outside China. Because if there are two planes, an airbus one and comac one for example, that provide the same profit - pretty much all airlines would pick the western maker because of perceived (or not) bonuses and security when it comes to sustaining the fleet of such planes over the decades to come.

When it comes to C919, it's a safer bet than any future chinese widebody for COMAC. It already has an engine in development. They may prove to be not as fuel efficient as LEAP1, but given enough years or a decade or two - that may change. More importantly, there are countless routes within China itself where C919 might be used. So much of potential geopolitical issues would not really be issues.

But longer range planes, ones flying to/from china and to/from other countries will not be so lucky. Those planes would likely include some of the C919, of course, but when it comes to widebodies, such flights would constitute basically 99% of the usage.

to be concluded...
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
...Continuation of the post above.

A short digression - can Chinese government afford, both politically and economy wise - to dictate what planes must Chinese airlines buy and use? realistically, no Chinese airline will want to operate C919 unless it's as profitable as an airbus or boeing, after any possible subsidies. (i'm talking about the situation where LEAP1 is not available) Only a situation where foreign planes are not available might force the airlines to buy comac planes. And even if Boeing planes are not available, how likely is it that Airbus planes too would not be available? Sure, Airbus might struggle a bit with demand but in general, very few airlines would buy Comac planes.

How did Airbus even succeed? In my opinion, it did so by doing the only thing one can do. Catching the opponents off guard. Boeing, MDD were complacent. They didn't invest enough to remain on the cutting edge of technology, thus yielding most profit to airlines. And even with that - the first plane airbus made did not compete directly with other, existing products - but went for a piece of market which was simply not served back then. In essence, they offered a revolutionary product.
Boeing had the big 747 and the 737 - and essentially nothing in between. 707 were still produced back in early 1970s but they were even more obsolete by then.
MDD had DC-10, a widebody, but it was a tri-engine jet, a concept that could not compete with a twin engine widebody.
So Airbus first struck where there was no competition with the A300 planes. When it made money off that and it got bolder, it went after B737, offering its A320 in the late 1980s. Again not directly competing with boeing models but knowing the B737 was stuck in a very old airframe. No matter how good the engines were, the wings were, B737 as a platform had less room to quickly modernize than A320.
B737NG did come to fight it, almost a decade later, as Boeing was caught off guard once again.

In between those two models Airbus went with A330. Which was once again not a direct competitor to anything that existed back then. B767 was a smaller plane, for shorter routes and fewer pax. B777 was a reaction to the A330/340 family, coming online several years later.

Today, however, COMAC faces a much tougher situation if it hopes to sell widebody planes to anyone. While MDD was not that much of competition to Boeing and while Boeing was sluggish and complacent, Airbus and Boeing today are almost equal competitors and are always trying to outdo one another. Which automatically means they're well poised to outdo any other new competitor.

Furthermore, while the 1970s situation where Airbus was starting was one where there were gaps in market segments - today's situation is much different. Pretty much all gaps have already been met and are continuously being met with ever newer versions of either Airbus or Boeing planes.
B777 is covering the very long range, very high capacity routes. Planes with even more range that B777 are simply impossible today.
A350 is covering the market that's slightly below the B777 in both range and capacity.
B787 is then covering the market that's slightly below the A350.
And A330neo is in there somewhere, trying to pry its way in between the sub-models of B787, but is perhaps the airbus plane with the most direct market placement against any boeing model. which is only normal because B787 was a direct attack on original A330 models, when Boeing saw an opportunity to go head to head as Airbus' model was sufficiently uncompetitive by 2010s. Even today, the story of b737 and A320 is repeating with A330 and B787, only in reverse. A330 is simply inherently not AS competitive to b787, despite its improvements and modern engines.


Below those models there are the remaining B767, which still make most profit on select, niche routes, but as the plane itself is out of production that market and market slightly below it when it comes to range is really the only left unpopulated market segment before we get to ever increasingly capable narrow bodies. Like A321XLR.

Boeing has, for some time now, tried to tackle said middle market segment. It's working on yet another iteration of the concept after the previous concept was shelved. Covid certainly caused some issues with future market predictions so said plane might still be some years away.

So, COMAC widebodes will have a VERY hard time being commercially competitive. And if they have some semblance of a chance to make a dent in sales - the best chance there are is that middle of the market segment. One could divide it to two segments, really. One would be a narrowbody to fight the long range A321. Possibly even a remake of the B757. Other would be a plane of similar range but for high capacity routes - calling for a wider body. But certainly not going over 10 000 km range, give or take - as a plane of such capabilities would have to be sized too close to existing plethora of B and A widebodies and would most likely not be able to compete per seat/mile basis given the inherent issues outlined in the paragraphs above.

So... question remains - what is COMAC even trying to achieve with future middle/long range widebodies? By their definition- they will fly to countries outside China. Will the destination countries give the aviation certificates for such planes to operate in sufficient numbers? For example, if EU doesn't give out such certificates, would just flying to the Middle East and Moscow be enough to make the whole project profitable?

Is COMAC even trying to make the project profitable? What role does Chinese government have in all that? Is COMAC simply following orders from the Government? Does the government perhaps simply wish to sink a few tens of billions of dollars into aerospace without any actual intent to recuperate the investment directly? Does the government perhaps simply want to finance the aerospace sector and make foundations for future decades (after 2050) so the sector is highly skilled and perhaps competitive by then?

I do wish there are news reports (not media analysis and media guesswork) and publications that help clarify those questions but so far I haven't managed to find them.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
What China needs to do is grow the relevance of its regulatory aviation authority. So that if the West decides to cut Chinese aircraft out by either FAA or EASA not licensing them they can still fly to the relevant destinations outside those jurisdictions. They also need to investigate having the full test and certification cycle either in China or in some place not affected by FAA or EASA meddling to avoid what is happening with the icing tests in Canada. In think once China has its own native aircraft which has leading edge or at least good enough performance then it can try to export it to countries outside FAA or EASA. Southeast Asia, Africa, Latin America, etc.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
...Continuation of the post above.

A short digression - can Chinese government afford, both politically and economy wise - to dictate what planes must Chinese airlines buy and use? realistically, no Chinese airline will want to operate C919 unless it's as profitable as an airbus or boeing, after any possible subsidies. (i'm talking about the situation where LEAP1 is not available) Only a situation where foreign planes are not available might force the airlines to buy comac planes. And even if Boeing planes are not available, how likely is it that Airbus planes too would not be available? Sure, Airbus might struggle a bit with demand but in general, very few airlines would buy Comac planes.

I see the answer as yes. For example, they could unofficially mandate that the C919 accounts for say 20% of domestic flights for every Chinese airline. So no individual airline has an advantage over any other airline and it's not that big a hit on each airline because it is only 20% of their short-haul fleets.

Boeing has an estimate that China will need 300 single-aisle airplanes per year for the next 20 years. That would work out as 60 C919 deliveries per year. Of course, production could be somewhat lower or far higher depending on how the C919 develops in the future.


So... question remains - what is COMAC even trying to achieve with future middle/long range widebodies? By their definition- they will fly to countries outside China. Will the destination countries give the aviation certificates for such planes to operate in sufficient numbers? For example, if EU doesn't give out such certificates, would just flying to the Middle East and Moscow be enough to make the whole project profitable?

If the EU don't give out airworthiness certificates for the C929, I see problems with China granting airworthiness certificates for the competitors from Airbus.

Is COMAC even trying to make the project profitable? What role does Chinese government have in all that? Is COMAC simply following orders from the Government? Does the government perhaps simply wish to sink a few tens of billions of dollars into aerospace without any actual intent to recuperate the investment directly? Does the government perhaps simply want to finance the aerospace sector and make foundations for future decades (after 2050) so the sector is highly skilled and perhaps competitive by then?

I do wish there are news reports (not media analysis and media guesswork) and publications that help clarify those questions but so far I haven't managed to find them.

I see the existing ARJ21, C919 and C929 projects as stepping stones to developing a fully-fledged commercial airliner industry in the future. But the initial costs and subsidies will be borne by a combination of:

1) the consumers who have to fly on these planes, even if they are somewhat more expensive than Airbus/Boeing equivalents
2) the government (kickstarting a larger commercial airliner industry now, which means more economic activity and tax opportunities. Otherwise this would be located in the US (Boeing) and the EU (Airbus)

My guess is that the initial subsidies are neutral as enough activity is generated elsewhere to offset
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
What China needs to do is grow the relevance of its regulatory aviation authority. So that if the West decides to cut Chinese aircraft out by either FAA or EASA not licensing them
It's not "if". The FAA and EASA have never licensed a major Chinese aircraft and they never will.
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
Rather than provide subsidies it might be better to equalize costs by generating revenue instead. Perhaps tariffs.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
China needs neither subsidies nor tariffs. Most Chinese airlines are government owned. They can just dictate them to buy Chinese aircraft non officially. Heck, US airlines were not government owned and Airbus had a heck of a hard time getting into that market.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
I see the existing ARJ21, C919 and C929 projects as stepping stones to developing a fully-fledged commercial airliner industry in the future. But the initial costs and subsidies will be borne by a combination of:
do you think China really want to build a civilian airline industry?. its very labor intensive work to scale up with not much revenue.
this will be additional labor as i dont think COMAC share manufacturing with other firms.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
do you think China really want to build a civilian airline industry?. its very labor intensive work to scale up with not much revenue.
this will be additional labor as i dont think COMAC share manufacturing with other firms.

A Boeing 737 is over $100 Million.

If Chinese airlines are buying 300 short-haul single-aisle airliners (such as the B-737), that is $30 Billion in annual revenue.

If only 60 C-919s are built every year, that might account for $6 Billion in annual revenue.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
A short digression - can Chinese government afford, both politically and economy wise - to dictate what planes must Chinese airlines buy and use? realistically, no Chinese airline will want to operate C919 unless it's as profitable as an airbus or boeing, after any possible subsidies. (i'm talking about the situation where LEAP1 is not available) Only a situation where foreign planes are not available might force the airlines to buy comac planes. And even if Boeing planes are not available, how likely is it that Airbus planes too would not be available? Sure, Airbus might struggle a bit with demand but in general, very few airlines would buy Comac planes.
I see the answer as yes. For example, they could unofficially mandate that the C919 accounts for say 20% of domestic flights for every Chinese airline. So no individual airline has an advantage over any other airline and it's not that big a hit on each airline because it is only 20% of their short-haul fleets.

You're assuming that Airbus and Boeing can deliver planes as fast as Chinese airlines need them. But normally there are long waiting times until planes get delivered. A less efficient plane will still generate more revenue than a non existent one. It currently takes more than 18 months until planes are delivered after an order has been made, see for example this big order in December 2021:

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Scherer said that despite concerns over the spread of the new Omicron variant of coronavirus, demand was fundamentally being driven by the need for more fuel-efficient aircraft. Airbus last week secured two significant orders, including a deal with Air France-KLM for 100 A320neo and A321neos. The first deliveries are expected in the second half of 2023.

If the C919 is sold at a good discount and is available immediately, it would already have generated quite a bit of profit before the foreign plane even gets delivered. When Chinese tourism is expected to increase rapidly, how can an airline watch and wait for more planes when an acceptable alternative is available? So even if the competition is better in every way, without the production capacity to fulfil the demand, there will be buyers for the C919.

There is also the possibility that fuel efficiency will become less important. The Chinese car market is now more than a quarter electric. If 10 years from now demand for fossil fuels for cars is much lower than today, oil prices might decline again and Chinese domestic production might be sufficient, so fuel efficiency is not that relevant any more.
 
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