Chinese Aviation Industry

pmc

Major
Registered Member
A Boeing 737 is over $100 Million.

If Chinese airlines are buying 300 short-haul single-aisle airliners (such as the B-737), that is $30 Billion in annual revenue.

If only 60 C-919s are built every year, that might account for $6 Billion in annual revenue.
scaling upto 60 C919 per year will take a decade. by that time there will be full dependency on Airbus and Boeing as the size of fleets will become modern and bigger with more financial and manpower (Pilots/maintenance) tied up in those duoplies.
making 60 C919 does not do any good as it will fractionally replace Boeing/Airbus and divide the manpower of airlines in different planes further reducing profit margins.
The burden is solely on China to throw as much skilled manpower and resources to make airframe that is 20X airframe life of fighter and atleast 20X engine hours on a wing.

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
You are correct in that at least some of the Chinese transport companies should be avoiding mixed fleets to increase cost competitiveness. But that is not how they traditionally operate.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
You are correct in that at least some of the Chinese transport companies should be avoiding mixed fleets to increase cost competitiveness. But that is not how they traditionally operate.

There are only 3 major airline groups in China.
So each airline might only operate the C919 from a single hub.

Even with a minimal buy of 60 C919s annually, each airline group will have 200 C919 aircraft after a decade.
That is more than enough of a single aircraft type at a single location for efficiency purposes.

And after 20 years, each airline would end up with 400 C919 each.
 
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Spiritual Warrior

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
In the last thirty years, China has made major strides in nearly all fields of manufacturing. As the economy expanded, progress was made in nearly all industries, though unevenly at first. As China moved towards market integration with the global economy, a combination of foreign capital as well as domestic investments have provided with the manufacturing and industrial foundations for a modern state. In the first twenty years, most of this progress was seen primarily in labor-intensive and low-value fields such as textile manufaturing. During this stage, wealth accumulation and infastructure investments set up the stage for Chinese industries to move up the value-chain. In the last ten years, China has made strides in more capital-intensive sectors such as auto-manufacturing and shpibuiding that perhaps is even more impressive than the nation's metoeric economic rise as whole. China's move up the value-chain can also be seen in electronics, where it may stand to rival the global giants of Japan and Korea in the next half decade.

In parallel, the nation has also embarked on an amibitious program of military modernization. Although uneven across fields, for the most part I am sure we can agree that China is within half to one full generation behind Western nations in most systems and platform today.

With China's thriving civilian shipbuilding, auto, electronic, and commercial space sectors, I am very confident in China's ability to continue to catch up in fields such as radar, naval, ground-vehicles, and missile technology over the next decade and a half. However, in the field of aviation China may find itself confronted with a more challenging task. Sure the J-10 was a monumental step for China, but the reality is the Chinese aviation industry is not in any better shape than it was 30 years ago. Sure, China has the ability to manufacture some parts now thanks to deals with Boeing and Airbus, but in terms of manufacturing capacity as well as tech level, it is light years behind Europe and the United States.

With China's current economic development first approach, any military field that doesn't see growth in its civilian counterparts will be left behind. While China may field a variety of new naval and ground platforms, develop a capable LACM and better SAMs, and upgrade the avionics and missiles on its current aircraft fleet in the next decade, we might be in for dissapointment when it comes to the J-XX/XXJ projects. China suppposedly began its next-gen fighter project in the late nineties- yet not even a full-scale mockup has been shown. Not only have we yet to see the Super-10, current J-10s are still dependent on Russian engines.


Here are some of the thoughts I have gathered after viewing the Chinese Commercial Aviation thread, the Zhuhai Airshow thread, and some research on the side. What do you guys think?
According to the latest images of the CFTE site in Xi'an, the newest AEW&C KJ-600 seems to be in its last phases of readiness to enter PLANAF's service. Also, Y-20 cargo planes (inc. tanker variant) and H-6 bombers are still being massively produced.
In the last thirty years, China has made major strides in nearly all fields of manufacturing. As the economy expanded, progress was made in nearly all industries, though unevenly at first. As China moved towards market integration with the global economy, a combination of foreign capital as well as domestic investments have provided with the manufacturing and industrial foundations for a modern state. In the first twenty years, most of this progress was seen primarily in labor-intensive and low-value fields such as textile manufaturing. During this stage, wealth accumulation and infastructure investments set up the stage for Chinese industries to move up the value-chain. In the last ten years, China has made strides in more capital-intensive sectors such as auto-manufacturing and shpibuiding that perhaps is even more impressive than the nation's metoeric economic rise as whole. China's move up the value-chain can also be seen in electronics, where it may stand to rival the global giants of Japan and Korea in the next half decade.

In parallel, the nation has also embarked on an amibitious program of military modernization. Although uneven across fields, for the most part I am sure we can agree that China is within half to one full generation behind Western nations in most systems and platform today.

With China's thriving civilian shipbuilding, auto, electronic, and commercial space sectors, I am very confident in China's ability to continue to catch up in fields such as radar, naval, ground-vehicles, and missile technology over the next decade and a half. However, in the field of aviation China may find itself confronted with a more challenging task. Sure the J-10 was a monumental step for China, but the reality is the Chinese aviation industry is not in any better shape than it was 30 years ago. Sure, China has the ability to manufacture some parts now thanks to deals with Boeing and Airbus, but in terms of manufacturing capacity as well as tech level, it is light years behind Europe and the United States.

With China's current economic development first approach, any military field that doesn't see growth in its civilian counterparts will be left behind. While China may field a variety of new naval and ground platforms, develop a capable LACM and better SAMs, and upgrade the avionics and missiles on its current aircraft fleet in the next decade, we might be in for dissapointment when it comes to the J-XX/XXJ projects. China suppposedly began its next-gen fighter project in the late nineties- yet not even a full-scale mockup has been shown. Not only have we yet to see the Super-10, current J-10s are still dependent on Russian engines.


Here are some of the thoughts I have gathered after viewing the Chinese Commercial Aviation thread, the Zhuhai Airshow thread, and some research on the side. What do you guys think?
According to the latest images of the CFTE site in Xi'an, the newest AEW&C KJ-600 seems to be in its last phases of readiness to enter PLANAF's service. Also, Y-20 cargo planes (inc. tanker variant) and H-6 bombers are still being massively produced.

 

Spiritual Warrior

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
According to the latest images of the CFTE site in Xi'an, the newest AEW&C KJ-600 seems to be in its last phases of readiness to enter PLANAF's service. Also, Y-20 cargo planes (inc. tanker variant) and H-6 bombers are still being massively produced.

According to the latest images of the CFTE site in Xi'an, the newest AEW&C KJ-600 seems to be in its last phases of readiness to enter PLANAF's service. Also, Y-20 cargo planes (inc. tanker variant) and H-6 bombers are still being massively produced.


What the total Nos of Y-20 in PLAAF?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Okay, there is several points to address here.
1) having a health civilian aerospace industry is very important to a country, so China will keep putting money into it as long as they need to
2) C919 as it currently stands is not commercially competitive for operations to A321NEO or A220, so it makes no sense for airlines to buy it on commercial reasons alone.
3) That's why the Chinese government is there to "encourage" domestic airlines to operate it. Aside from outside pressure, there are things that Chinese government can do for domestic airlines that demonstrate the willingness to operate C919 like low cost loans, airport real estate access, more slot pairs, open up larger portion of domestic air space.
4) While cost of purchase is not the largest portion of cost over the lifetime of an aircraft, it's still a significant cost. Same reason why you see US airlines continue to operate old, but fully paid for 757s and 767s. There is no way C919 operating economics can be as bad as those.
5) delivery slot is a real thing. A320 and A220 series are fully booked for a while. Very hard to get near term delivery slots. If they can quickly ramp up C919 production, they can provide near term delivery slots.
6) It should not take a decade to scale up to 60 a year. That's ridiculous. COMAC will learn a lot about supply chain management with this project. They need to be producing 12 a month in a few years if they can continue to get orders.
7) continue to work on developing domestic suppliers. The domestic supply chain will also need government support.
8) COMAC should temper its export aspirations and just work on domestic market. If COMAC starts to export aircraft and then is unable to service them, that would be a huge disaster. Stick with domestic airlines and get them to work with COMAC to build its post sales network. Remember, for any airliner to succeed, they need to have a large enough volume to have secondary lease market and spare parts. Otherwise, cost of operation will be very high
9) don't expect C919 to be a success. This should be considered as China's A300 project. Airbus did not succeed until A320.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I don't expect either C919 nor C929 (or whatever first wide body plane comes out finally) to become a success.
C919 will sell more, of course, due to its type, and due to the fact Chinese government can dictate some sales, again due to the fact much of its use will be inside China. Lack of other planes availability slots on the market will also be a factor, sure. Especially if, for example, Boeing planes get banned. (For example, US bans bunch of parts and engines for C919, then China bans Boeing)

Given development time, I don't expect C919 to be sold/made more than in the low hundreds before 2030. (200-ish, if US components are available?) And even out of those made, I expect most would be almost given out to Chinese airlines at very low, heavily subsidized prices. I expect very few exports to airlines outside China before 2030.

C929 (in any of its possible iterations) will fare worse in my expectations. It may be ready somewhere around the year 2030. And may sell maybe several dozen planes to Chinese airlines (again heavily subsidized) by 2040. I expect next to zero sales to airlines outside China by same timeframe. In essence, I expect it to be marginally more economically successful than IL-86/96 family was for Russia.

That said, both planes will progress the general know how of Chinese aerospace industry. I expect the C919 to even partially recoup its development/production costs to a non-negligible degree. Very importantly, they will be platforms on which chinese subsystems and especially chinese made engines will get real world operating experience.

So, IF China manages to get through the incoming economic/technological/political war with the US/West fairly well, then its aerospace industry may be, thanks to C919 and C929 and their engines, well set to become a true commercially competitive player with the *next* iteration of designs - in 2040s and later. Not just because of the technological/industrial base but also because politically China might be a stronger player worldwide by then.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I don't expect either C919 nor C929 (or whatever first wide body plane comes out finally) to become a success.
C919 will sell more, of course, due to its type, and due to the fact Chinese government can dictate some sales, again due to the fact much of its use will be inside China. Lack of other planes availability slots on the market will also be a factor, sure. Especially if, for example, Boeing planes get banned. (For example, US bans bunch of parts and engines for C919, then China bans Boeing)

Given development time, I don't expect C919 to be sold/made more than in the low hundreds before 2030. (200-ish, if US components are available?) And even out of those made, I expect most would be almost given out to Chinese airlines at very low, heavily subsidized prices. I expect very few exports to airlines outside China before 2030.

C929 (in any of its possible iterations) will fare worse in my expectations. It may be ready somewhere around the year 2030. And may sell maybe several dozen planes to Chinese airlines (again heavily subsidized) by 2040. I expect next to zero sales to airlines outside China by same timeframe. In essence, I expect it to be marginally more economically successful than IL-86/96 family was for Russia.

That said, both planes will progress the general know how of Chinese aerospace industry. I expect the C919 to even partially recoup its development/production costs to a non-negligible degree. Very importantly, they will be platforms on which chinese subsystems and especially chinese made engines will get real world operating experience.

So, IF China manages to get through the incoming economic/technological/political war with the US/West fairly well, then its aerospace industry may be, thanks to C919 and C929 and their engines, well set to become a true commercially competitive player with the *next* iteration of designs - in 2040s and later. Not just because of the technological/industrial base but also because politically China might be a stronger player worldwide by then.
why would US ban export of subsystems for C919? That would be a really stupid idea since Boeing would inevitably get a similar treatment and lose huge market share to Airbus.

They will have several hundred C919 in service by the end of this decade. The issue is not how many airlines will buy them, but how heavily C919 will be used. The utilization of ARJ-21 aircraft is really low. The best thing domestic airline can do is to work with COMAC to increase utilization/availability of C919. Again, all this require significant government pressure.

C929 project is not relevant right now.
 
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