China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

rhino123 said:

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And more wrong. .

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I guess you think buying an engine is basicly like going for candy to a candy shop, or buying screws at home depo.

Buying any jet engine, requires know the engine manual. that requieres the technical assistance of Klimov in JF-17, even Al-31 has maintainance manuals that are needed to mantain the engines on Su-27s.

D-30 is no different, specially when you order 190 of them.

When China orders 190 engines of D-30K, they are signing contracts, since the engine requiere tooling and preparations at the shops, plus exports permits once they get out of Russia.


To further add, RD-93 can not be re-exported without Russian authorization, in few words when china fits Russian engines to their aircraft they are signing a contract with United Engine Corporation and Rosoboronexport.
Y-20 is no exception, in fact recently Russia is asking China not to use Al-31s for research for their engine programs.

If you understand that you will understand Y-20`s engines are no candies you buy in a candyshop

t2contra said:

China is doing things differently, for reasons the others here have been saying here. China may be using Russian engines now, but the trend is for it to use its own eventually. Even engines for civilian jets. The keyword is trend. China wants to master the building of an entire aviation industry with the same level of ability as the Russians and the Americans, the same way it is doing for its railway industry. You will have to accept a China drifting away to more independence, no matter how grudgingly.

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I do not think you understand my point, China is trying of course to get its jet engine program out of the ground, but realities of aerospace show always is better get first customers rather than just trying to get the technology.

China is trying to build a new engine for Y-20, i do not doubt about it, what i said is Russia provides the engine and Russia as vendors do ask questions, the Engines Russia sells have conditions, once you pass those conditions you need to sign contracts, Russia by selling engines for Y-20 is basicly a partner, since their product has also rights, is not like you buy the engine like in home depo and you just use it as you wish, engines have conditions, need manuals, maintainance, so you need the manufacturer for that.

MiG-29 said:

i am not mixing any thing today aircraft are build as international products.

Even fighter aircraft.

F-16 was built in Europe, Turkey, Korea, Japan.

Why i ask you why? simple increase profits.

F-15 was build in Japan even the whole engine, why?
why? simple increase marktes.

Why sukhoi has built SU-27s in China and Russia? money money money.

Today there are no programs purely domestic, any aircraft weather is military of civil.
J-10 and JF-17 are at this moment international products since they are powered by Russian engines.

J-11 is an international product built in India and China to increase sales to Sukhoi.

Y-20 is basicly a international product as long there is not Chinese equivalent engine.

Supliers sign contracts with the leading company.

Can China build Y-20 with domestic engines certainly yes, however if you want to see the US experience with C-17, is while the US can have more than 200 of these jets, certainly americans have no health care insurance, they have one of the worsts health systems in the developed world, to the degree americans have to go in turist health trips to recieve medical attention overseas.
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So the moral of the history, when a government is burdened in military purchases and buys, they start cutting social programs.

Yes the americans can boast 200 C-17s, but their citizens are going to mexico and Canada for health treatment, even Asia.

Can china with lower standards of living afford 200 Y-20s?


In Russia they know military expenses are worthless if your economy is in Shambles, so they made a joint venture with India for MTA and one with Ukranie for AN-70, Europe is they same, they cut military programs or they make things joint programs.

Brazil knows the same, so they first are looking for custumers for KC-390.

China will need to make joint ventures.

In fact the US has already Globalized even its military


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The Honeywell Operating System (HOS) has been implemented in 84 percent of operations in Mexico at Bronze status or better. Honeywell Security Group (HSG) and Honeywell Life Safety (HLS) each have HOS Silver-certified plants in Ciudad Juarez. Additionally, the facilities in Chihuahua have been recognized as a Center of Excellence in the area of advanced precision mechanics for commercial and military aircraft engines.

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You obviously got all the stuff wrong...

Those F-16 that not built on US soil was not to reduce cost but the respective nations try to sweeten the deal, do major works to kickstart their own aviation industries. Most are assembly works with perhaps some non-US components like avionics but mostly are still US made parts.

The F-15J is Japan's effort to keep their own military aviation industries operating, in fact by purchasing F-15J this way its unit cost is far more expensive than it'd have been taken delivery from the US. If you love to flash your economics knowledge you won't need me to tell you what basic theory behind such.

Su-27 is built in Russia and that's a "duh!", the deal with China that includes a production line setup in China is not to save money, but to give the Chinese aviation industry a opportunity to learn building 4th-gen fighters. when the best they could back then was a MiG-21 on steroids, aka J-8.

And speaking of joint project, China got burnt by the US after 1989, in the case of aviation that's the modernization of the J-8II...though by the time the venture shut down China learned something more valuable, something called "standardization", eventually China adopted the GJB system, which is learned from the MIL-STD system the US implemented.

Joint venture in defense industries have more failures than successes, though in such piss-arse economy now, it's a risky-yet-viable option when everyone is pinching their wallets. Prima delta factor is that participants are best from the same bloc to cut down the risk of dissolution due to political issues. In the case of China, they got burned after the 1989 incident forced plenty of the Sino-US/Europe projects closed, then in the 2000s China got burned again in EU's Galileo project, lost €230 million there.

It's annoying that we need to give free economics lecture in such a place, and at our free time! And in the spirit of "freedom of speech", the mods can do nothing until you're finally enlightened...but as far it can be seen, it's like lighting a lantern made out of cow hide - that's an old Chinese proverb, won't take you long to wiki that up.

THIS IS THE Y-20 TREAD ... so please STOP this discussion on sematic differences of cooperation, licence manufacturing abroad or joint-venture !

Deino

MwRYum said:

Joint venture in defense industries have more failures than successes, though in such piss-arse economy now, it's a risky-yet-viable option when everyone is pinching their wallets. Prima delta factor is that participants are best from the same bloc to cut down the risk of dissolution due to political issues. In the case of China, they got burned after the 1989 incident forced plenty of the Sino-US/Europe projects closed, then in the 2000s China got burned again in EU's Galileo project, lost €230 million there.

.

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The question is does China have industrial allies?


According to some reports yes China does have allies.

One is Antonov and Ukraine


Украинская авиастроительная компания "Антонов" является ключевым иностранным участником китайских программ по развитию парка военно-транспортной авиации. Украинские инженеры принимают активное участие как в развитии семейства средних транспортных самолетов Y-8/Y-9 (они созданы на основе производившихся на Украине Ан-12), так и в разработке нового китайского тяжелого военно-транспортного самолета Y-20.

Продемонстрированный недавно публике Y-20 спроектирован на основе разрабатывавшегося "Антоновым", но так и не доведенного до стадии реализации проекта тяжелого военно-транспортного самолета Ан-170. Украинские инженеры фактически отвечали за многие ключевые технические решения в этом самолете. Кроме того, "Антонов" отвечал за проектирование крыла китайского гражданского регионального пассажирского самолета ARJ-21, судьба которого складывается неудачно

According to this news report by Voice of Russia, China has excellent relations with Ukraine and Antonov were involved in Y-20 as well as Y-8 and ARJ-21, in fact it says Chinese defence minister Visited Ukraine witha delegation of military people.
Plus Ukraine is directly involve in many Chinese military programs






Китайский самолет Y-20 впервые поднялся в воздух. Это серьезная заявка ВВС КНР на создание собственного военно-транспортного флота - именно в этой области Китай сильнее всего отстает от США и РФ. Впрочем, на новом самолете установлены российские двигатели, а крылья спроектированы украинским ОКБ "Антонова"

according to this other report it reads

Chinese couterpart to Il-76, Russian engines and wing designed by Antonov



I know for many this is sacrilage, but this is not bad, in fact shows how much cooperation with Russia and Ukraine is a normal aspect of aircraft design these days.

It is globalization, like E-170 has aerodynamic research made in Russia or B-787 has aerodynamic research in Russia.

There is nothing wrong about that, it is normal these days nations cooperate

MiG-29 said:

I do not think you understand my point, China is trying of course to get its jet engine program out of the ground, but realities of aerospace show always is better get first customers rather than just trying to get the technology.

China is trying to build a new engine for Y-20, i do not doubt about it, what i said is Russia provides the engine and Russia as vendors do ask questions, the Engines Russia sells have conditions, once you pass those conditions you need to sign contracts, Russia by selling engines for Y-20 is basicly a partner, since their product has also rights, is not like you buy the engine like in home depo and you just use it as you wish, engines have conditions, need manuals, maintainance, so you need the manufacturer for that.

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I'm sure you know that Y-20 will have customers, even if they are mostly domestic. And you all over the place here over the fact that the Russians are a partner in the Y-20 program by virtue of being an engine supplier to the prototype. But when the Y-20 start using local engines, Russian involvement will be a distant memory to us. In this thread about Y-20 that will eventually use local engines, you have been hammering the point about Russian engines. Aren't you being over the top?

MiG-29 said:

i will tell you why i guessed that.
C919, has many western sub-system, however if China had technically speaking equivalent sub-systems, they could build a Chinese version with only Chinese sub-systems in the same way MS-21 has one russian version with PD-14 engine and one Westernized version of MS-21 with western engine.
Now you might objetc the ARJ-21 and C-919 are civilian aircraft designe for export, however these jets are not being buy by western firms, however the reality they mostly buy by Chinese airliners.

Of course i am guessing, only time will tell

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But your guess has very little support. Generally speaking, China treats military and civilian projects very differently. It's exactly because if Russia does embargo China could cause a lot of pain in the Y-20, J-10 and JF-17 project that has forced China to seek its own internal options. China does not have to worry about embargo in civilian projects, so C-919 and ARJ-21 are using suppliers from everywhere. PLA just doesn't trust any other countries. It only buys AL-31FN and RD-93 because it has no domestic alternatives. But China's goal in this projects are to eventually go all indigenous. Everyone who has spent some time on this forum should know this. So, let's concentrate on Y-20 and whether there is any real support for your claims.

C-919 and Y-20 are separate issues. And if you keep on bringing that up, you are just taking this thread to a different area and we will have to start deleting your off topic posts.

MiG-29 said:

I guess you think buying an engine is basicly like going for candy to a candy shop, or buying screws at home depo.

Buying any jet engine, requires know the engine manual. that requieres the technical assistance of Klimov in JF-17, even Al-31 has maintainance manuals that are needed to mantain the engines on Su-27s.

D-30 is no different, specially when you order 190 of them.

When China orders 190 engines of D-30K, they are signing contracts, since the engine requiere tooling and preparations at the shops, plus exports permits once they get out of Russia.


To further add, RD-93 can not be re-exported without Russian authorization, in few words when china fits Russian engines to their aircraft they are signing a contract with United Engine Corporation and Rosoboronexport.
Y-20 is no exception, in fact recently Russia is asking China not to use Al-31s for research for their engine programs.

If you understand that you will understand Y-20`s engines are no candies you buy in a candyshop

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No. I don't think what you have accused me of. I mean, to give a simple example, I am designing an aircraft, of course I wanted that aircraft to be out and ready as soon as possible for various reasons, but my domestic engines are not ready, so right on the drawing board, I am making use of an engine that I have experience on. And in this case, it was the Russian engines which perhaps I have manufacturing rights from the Russian (as I paid for the contract), etc. And use that as a basis for my new aircraft while waiting for my own indegenous engine to be readied.

That does not suddenly make my aircraft international... That is the lowest someone would go to claim credit for other's hardwork. I mean, yes, the Russian put in effort in developing the engines, and having that engines out, but they did not do it just for my uses, and I paid the Russian with money to get that engines for my aircraft, and that is the only thing here. Nothing more.

And don't bother putting up all those links, because I don't care, nobody here care.

And there you have it. China had a contract with Russia to export their aircraft with Russian engine... and thats it, nothing more, China pay money to get that engine, that engine was incoorporated into the airframe and that was it. There was no other things behind it, other than you claiming credit for the Russian that JF-17 suddenly become international and Russian becoming a partner. It simply don't work that way.

And I still maintain... stick with engineering, which is what you are good with, and leave globalisation and stuff like that to the economist and financial analysts, because (sorry if it sound harsh), you are not too good in that area.

And can we please get back to Y-20?

MiG-29 said:

Boeing has been sharing work with other nations since 767 and 777.
Airbus is a international products.
Embraer is an international product, not even Brazilian as many think, Embraer makes aircraft in Brazil and ios a Brazilian firm but do you know why E-170 looks so similar to SSJ? simple Sukhoi super jet and E-170 were modelled in Russia.
So Russia did indeed help Brazil to build E-170.


Embraer has been making use of that institute’s facilities since last June, employing TsAGI’s wind tunnel to fine-tune the ERJ 170/190 regional jetliner family. Furthermore, the Brazilian aircraft manufacturer has also made extensive use of that research center’s computer-based aerodynamic and aeroelastic laboratories.

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Bombardier has suppliers in several countries, ranging from Wichita, Belfast and Queretaro.

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These are the top for builders of large aircraft.

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Irrelevant. How western companies approach their civilian projects has no concern to Chinese military projects whatsoever. How the civilian sector conducts business has absolutely no relation to a military transport.

MiG-29 said:

However i am sure you think Antonov helping China to build Y-20 is a thing to hide or Russian engines in Y-20 a horrible mistake.

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All Antonov showed was a CFD rendering, and there is absolutely no proof what Antonov did actually ended up on the Y-20. Russian engines on the Y-20 doesn't make the aircraft a joint venture between China and Russia. Russia has absolutely no say on what China can or cannot do the Y-20, which is further proof that the aircraft is not a joint venture. You and people like you need to stop stealing credits from others.

tphuang said:

But your guess has very little support. Generally speaking, China treats military and civilian projects very differently. It's exactly because if Russia does embargo China could cause a lot of pain in the Y-20, J-10 and JF-17 project that has forced China to seek its own internal options. China does not have to worry about embargo in civilian projects, so C-919 and ARJ-21 are using suppliers from everywhere. PLA just doesn't trust any other countries. It only buys AL-31FN and RD-93 because it has no domestic alternatives. But China's goal in this projects are to eventually go all indigenous. Everyone who has spent some time on this forum should know this. So, let's concentrate on Y-20 and whether there is any real support for your claims.

C-919 and Y-20 are separate issues. And if you keep on bringing that up, you are just taking this thread to a different area and we will have to start deleting your off topic posts.

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i hope you can show me an official list of suppliers of Y-20 and that all are chinese otherwise, it seems you are just guessing.
If you can not prove it then sorry, your ability to proof your point is no more than a personal guess, i might be wrong but i guess you can not do it, and as such i do not think your point is better than mine.