China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

MiG-29 said:

i will tell you why i guessed that.
C919, has many western sub-system, however if China had technically speaking equivalent sub-systems, they could build a Chinese version with only Chinese sub-systems in the same way MS-21 has one russian version with PD-14 engine and one Westernized version of MS-21 with western engine.
Now you might objetc the ARJ-21 and C-919 are civilian aircraft designe for export, however these jets are not being buy by western firms, however the reality they mostly buy by Chinese airliners.

Of course i am guessing, only time will tell

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Actually, the MS-21 is full of western sub-systems as well. From , we see western involvement includes Goodrich, Hamilton Sundstrand, Kidde Technologies' L'Hotelier, Liebherr Aerospace, P&W, and Rockwell Collins. Zodiac Aerospace will provide the furnishings, such as seats and wall panels. Your own reasoning would say that Russia's reliance on foreign companies for sub-systems is a sign of the country's inability in making equivalent subsystems; that Russia couldn't even make seats for aircraft.

Clearly, your reasoning doesn't work. The fact is that both China and Russia must use western sub-systems out of certification and political reasons. China and Russia can provide all the sub-systems themselves, but do so and the west will not give out certifications. Without certifications, an airliner is useless. Y-20 is a military transport hence has no such restriction, thus doesn't need to involve foreign companies in a joint venture.

MiG-29 said:

No the russian are not like that, specially official sources, what happens is you exagerate many times when they say they might buy into affirm they will buy, plus many times you can not believe things because it contradicts your beliefs system.

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Actually, Russians are exactly like what Schumacher has claimed. Ever heard of ? Well, Russia is the boy, and its words have little credibility now days.

MiG-29 said:

You expect China not to be help, however Russia indeed has cooperated in many Chinese programs and at any moment you hear Russia help in J-10, Z-10 or Y-20 you can not believe Russia could help China.

In a globalized world, every one cooperates and there is no pure domestic product these days.

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Here is the fact: China never said it received Russia's help. There is no incentive for Russia to help China either, as every aircraft you listed competes with Russian product.

MiG-29 said:

Globalization does not fix borders, just interests.
Y-20 has russian engines, i wonder if Russia would stop selling Al-31s or D-30 what would happen to Chinese air force?

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Russia has also stopped selling new IL-76 to China and what happened? China build the Y-20 instead. So, the answer to your question is a simple one: Chinese engines will slowly take the place of Russian engines.

MiG-29 said:

You can see globlalization in Chinese aircraft programs, Cooperation with Russia and Ukraine in J-10, Z-10, JL-15, J-11, cooperation with Europe in airbus and Eurocopter aircraft build in China, with Canada with Bombardier, with US in B787, with Brazil in ERJ-145.

China is very well in depth in Globalization

what happens here people want to deny any foreign input.

China has chose the way of tech transfers by the west and Russia to China in exchange of sales by Sukhoi or Airbus in China.
ARJ-21 and C919 are also globalized products more in tune with the realities of the modern world.


Competition has being taken by these foreigners in two ways.

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Actually, it is the opposite. Compare the J-11 to J-20 and it is obvious that the amount of foreign participation goes from 100% to 0%. As far as China sees, the whole purpose of any tech transfer is to achieve that 0%. The issue here isn't people denying foreign input. The issue is that those inputs are not enough to amount to joint ventures unlike your claims. You don't want to believe the decrease in reliance and increase in independence on China's part, so you go off tangent about what China should be doing instead of accepting what China is doing.

MiG-29 said:

If China builds Y-20 for example, Russia is selling D-30s and making new engines, so they consider these sales will help their firms to upgrade and stil remain ahead of China in the world markets, that is the way also Airbus and Eurocopter think.

Others if they think China demands too much tech trasnfers, simply they move to other emerging marktes for design or manufacture.

Embraer for a while was pondering the manufacture of ERJ-145 in China was worthed and if it should remain due to the demands by the Chinese of tech transfers and hindrances to sales of Embraer aircraft, however the issue was solved and Brazil and China decided to build executive jets togather see

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To date, Embraer has 154 firm orders from China market, with 116 aircraft already delivered. Embraer accounts for around 78% of China’s regional aviation market and is gaining strength in its executive segment with 18 firm orders for executive jets in the year 2011. The cooperation with AVIC on Legacy 600/650 program further consolidates Embraer’s presence in China’s executive aviation market.




Y-20 as such also is taken by Russian firms to milk China` treasury, the sale of D-30KP alledgedly for Il-76 owned by China, well at least 4 ended up in Y-20, and China just bought 190 of these engines for alledgedly Il-76s as two RD-93 ended up in J-31.

However cooperation is the way to go if you want sales

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Neither China or Russia believes in cooperation. On China's side, there are active programs to get rid of Russian engines on Chinese aircraft. Russians company may want opportunities to earn money by cooperating with China, but China is closing such opportunities. On Russia's side, China is seen to be a technologically advanced competitor on global arms market. To prevent losing market share to China, Russia prevents China from selling any system that contains Russia's intellectual properties. Examples include J-10 and J-11. Such action only strengthens China's resolve to get rid of Russian components, making China an even bigger competitor in Russia's eyes. Then, the cycle continues.

For a long time, China is a backward country with no technological capabilities of its own. That has cased to be the case, yet many in Russia still want to hold on to that old belief. That is why Russian companies are having ; complain about IP theft by China, yet simultaneously clam participation in any China's advancement. As far as cooperation is concerned, Russia is too proud to ever go on any joint-venture with China.

Buying a subsystem (eg. Engine) from another nation doesn't equal to that nation that produce the engine are 'helping' the nation that bought the engine. And easy example, China buying D-30 engines from Russia to equip her Y-20 doesn't equate to Russia helping China in her Y-20 project. And to think that it was a joint venture would be nothing but a laugable joke...

Also... whoever think that Russia is helping China by selling components to China really need some serious check up. I mean... why don't we look at it this way, China is helping Russia by buying her product rather than letting those product rot in their warehouses and also keeping company afloat? Harsh as it might sound, both nation benefits from that trade, and thats it. There is no helping here, it is mere business.

As to globalisation, to think that globalisation only mean buying foreign products are a joke and a shallow way of looking at that perspective. I mean, it would be better that we stick to military hardware, technology and software if possible and let the finance people do the marketing and economy thinking, rather than coming out with some shallow explanation and bad examples.

Engineer said:

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No. They provide engines from a different continent partly out of politics and partly out of providing customers with choices.

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Boeing has been sharing work with other nations since 767 and 777.
Airbus is a international products.
Embraer is an international product, not even Brazilian as many think, Embraer makes aircraft in Brazil and ios a Brazilian firm but do you know why E-170 looks so similar to SSJ? simple Sukhoi super jet and E-170 were modelled in Russia.
So Russia did indeed help Brazil to build E-170.


Embraer has been making use of that institute’s facilities since last June, employing TsAGI’s wind tunnel to fine-tune the ERJ 170/190 regional jetliner family. Furthermore, the Brazilian aircraft manufacturer has also made extensive use of that research center’s computer-based aerodynamic and aeroelastic laboratories.


Bombardier has suppliers in several countries, ranging from Wichita, Belfast and Queretaro.


These are the top for builders of large aircraft.

However i am sure you think Antonov helping China to build Y-20 is a thing to hide or Russian engines in Y-20 a horrible mistake.

MwRYum said:

You're mixing the commercial programmes and military ones,

J-10A obviously have a special variant of the Al-31 engine; Z-10 have unknown input that for the past 2 decades credited to European and South African, and now Russia; JL-15 has obvious Yak-130 influence but to what extent is unknown, not until more official disclosure and close examinations in other airshows; J-11 deals comes as part of the package when importing Su-27, certainly something that generous won't be possible today but that was back in the 1990s, when Russia either cut a neat deal or starve to death...by the time of J-11B Chinese have "improved" upon it like they did with the MiG-21 into J-7.


.

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i am not mixing any thing today aircraft are build as international products.

Even fighter aircraft.

F-16 was built in Europe, Turkey, Korea, Japan.

Why i ask you why? simple increase profits.

F-15 was build in Japan even the whole engine, why?
why? simple increase marktes.

Why sukhoi has built SU-27s in China and Russia? money money money.

Today there are no programs purely domestic, any aircraft weather is military of civil.
J-10 and JF-17 are at this moment international products since they are powered by Russian engines.

J-11 is an international product built in India and China to increase sales to Sukhoi.

Y-20 is basicly a international product as long there is not Chinese equivalent engine.

Supliers sign contracts with the leading company.

Can China build Y-20 with domestic engines certainly yes, however if you want to see the US experience with C-17, is while the US can have more than 200 of these jets, certainly americans have no health care insurance, they have one of the worsts health systems in the developed world, to the degree americans have to go in turist health trips to recieve medical attention overseas.
see videos


So the moral of the history, when a government is burdened in military purchases and buys, they start cutting social programs.

Yes the americans can boast 200 C-17s, but their citizens are going to mexico and Canada for health treatment, even Asia.

Can china with lower standards of living afford 200 Y-20s?


In Russia they know military expenses are worthless if your economy is in Shambles, so they made a joint venture with India for MTA and one with Ukranie for AN-70, Europe is they same, they cut military programs or they make things joint programs.

Brazil knows the same, so they first are looking for custumers for KC-390.

China will need to make joint ventures.

In fact the US has already Globalized even its military


Honeywell's Mexicali Research & Technology Center in Baja California is a good example of the innovation and intellectual capabilities available in Mexico. This systems integration lab employs 350 people engaged in the design, engineering and testing of components for aircraft systems.
The Honeywell Operating System (HOS) has been implemented in 84 percent of operations in Mexico at Bronze status or better. Honeywell Security Group (HSG) and Honeywell Life Safety (HLS) each have HOS Silver-certified plants in Ciudad Juarez. Additionally, the facilities in Chihuahua have been recognized as a Center of Excellence in the area of advanced precision mechanics for commercial and military aircraft engines.

MiG-29 said:

i am not mixing any thing today aircraft are build as international products.

Even fighter aircraft.

F-16 was built in Europe, Turkey, Korea, Japan.

Why i ask you why? simple increase profits.

F-15 was build in Japan even the whole engine, why?
why? simple increase marktes.

Why sukhoi has built SU-27s in China and Russia? money money money.

Today there are no programs purely domestic, any aircraft weather is military of civil.
J-10 and JF-17 are at this moment international products since they are powered by Russian engines.

J-11 is an international product built in India and China to increase sales to Sukhoi.

Y-20 is basicly a international product as long there is not Chinese equivalent engine.

Supliers sign contracts with the leading company.

Can China build Y-20 with domestic engines certainly yes, however if you want to see the US experience with C-17, is while the US can have more than 200 of these jets, certainly americans have no health care insurance, they have one of the worsts health systems in the developed world, to the degree americans have to go in turist health trips to recieve medical attention overseas.
see videos

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So the moral of the history, when a government is burdened in military purchases and buys, they start cutting social programs.

Yes the americans can boast 200 C-17s, but their citizens are going to mexico and Canada for health treatment, even Asia.

Can china with lower standards of living afford 200 Y-20s?


In Russia they know military expenses are worthless if your economy is in Shambles, so they made a joint venture with India for MTA and one with Ukranie for AN-70, Europe is they same, they cut military programs or they make things joint programs.

Brazil knows the same, so they first are looking for custumers for KC-390.

China will need to make joint ventures.

In fact the US has already Globalized even its military


Honeywell's Mexicali Research & Technology Center in Baja California is a good example of the innovation and intellectual capabilities available in Mexico. This systems integration lab employs 350 people engaged in the design, engineering and testing of components for aircraft systems.
The Honeywell Operating System (HOS) has been implemented in 84 percent of operations in Mexico at Bronze status or better. Honeywell Security Group (HSG) and Honeywell Life Safety (HLS) each have HOS Silver-certified plants in Ciudad Juarez. Additionally, the facilities in Chihuahua have been recognized as a Center of Excellence in the area of advanced precision mechanics for commercial and military aircraft engines.

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J-11 built in India?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Either your lack comprehensive understanding and knowledge of dissecting real information from fake. Or that you have been brainwashed by the propaganda media.

J-11 was built to increase sales for Sukhoi?!?!?!

China lower standards of living to purchase Y-20?!?!?! Standards of living and military purchase have no commonality and one does not link to another. Throwing a stone into an ocean isn't going to cause a wave.

MiG-29 said:

i am not mixing any thing today aircraft are build as international products.

Even fighter aircraft.

F-16 was built in Europe, Turkey, Korea, Japan.

Why i ask you why? simple increase profits.

F-15 was build in Japan even the whole engine, why?
why? simple increase marktes.

Why sukhoi has built SU-27s in China and Russia? money money money.

Today there are no programs purely domestic, any aircraft weather is military of civil.
J-10 and JF-17 are at this moment international products since they are powered by Russian engines.

J-11 is an international product built in India and China to increase sales to Sukhoi.

Y-20 is basicly a international product as long there is not Chinese equivalent engine.

Supliers sign contracts with the leading company.

Can China build Y-20 with domestic engines certainly yes, however if you want to see the US experience with C-17, is while the US can have more than 200 of these jets, certainly americans have no health care insurance, they have one of the worsts health systems in the developed world, to the degree americans have to go in turist health trips to recieve medical attention overseas.
see videos

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So the moral of the history, when a government is burdened in military purchases and buys, they start cutting social programs.

Yes the americans can boast 200 C-17s, but their citizens are going to mexico and Canada for health treatment, even Asia.

Can china with lower standards of living afford 200 Y-20s?


In Russia they know military expenses are worthless if your economy is in Shambles, so they made a joint venture with India for MTA and one with Ukranie for AN-70, Europe is they same, they cut military programs or they make things joint programs.

Brazil knows the same, so they first are looking for custumers for KC-390.

China will need to make joint ventures.

In fact the US has already Globalized even its military


Honeywell's Mexicali Research & Technology Center in Baja California is a good example of the innovation and intellectual capabilities available in Mexico. This systems integration lab employs 350 people engaged in the design, engineering and testing of components for aircraft systems.
The Honeywell Operating System (HOS) has been implemented in 84 percent of operations in Mexico at Bronze status or better. Honeywell Security Group (HSG) and Honeywell Life Safety (HLS) each have HOS Silver-certified plants in Ciudad Juarez. Additionally, the facilities in Chihuahua have been recognized as a Center of Excellence in the area of advanced precision mechanics for commercial and military aircraft engines.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And more wrong. There are so many wrong things here that I do not even know how to begin. And like I mentioned before... maybe I will repeat myself again, please keep to something that you are more familiar with (like engineering and military hardware) and leave the financial aspect of stuff to the financial analysts and economists.

Okay. I will attempt to answer some of the things you brought up.

1) F-16 being built in Europe (?), Turkey, Japan, and the such (and may I add... many are being upgraded in Singapore too), but money or profit is just one of the reason for these nations to want to build these aircraft, because there are other alternative that are cheaper (not necessary better, but cheaper) and if money and profit is the only thing people look at, then they could easily go for alternatives like Mig-29, Su-27, etc. One reason for these nations to opt for F-16 is because of politics and another was that they already had Americans aircrafts in their arsenals.

2) Sukhoi didn't had Su-27 built in China (not sure about India), China built Su-27 from kits delivered from Sukhoi and it was actually built by China's own company, that is a totally different thing as Sukhoi building Su-27 in China (totally different matter).

3) J-11 is a Chinese aircraft (J-11 is built from kits from Russia), J-11B is an indegenous attempt, J-11 is never built in India or any other nation. Please get this clear.

4) F-15 is built in Japan for the same reason as F-16. The nation that agreed to build the F-15 was not just because of profit, other more important factors plays a part - like politics.

5) JF-17 is a joint venture with Pakistan. Although it flies with Russian engines, it doesn't make the system an international system, geeze... I mean come on! Do you really think that Russian engines only uses Russian components? Really? And if you really tear open the engine, found some wiring, electronic component and the such that came from... well... I don't know... China, Japan, Korean. Does your prided Russian engine actually an international product?

6) Y-20 - same as above.

7) J-10 - same as above.

So... frankly, we all know how proud you are of Russian technology... but please stick with the topic, stick with what you know best (and that actually lies in engineering) and leave all this talk on money, economic and globalisation to the economists and financial analysts.

MiG-29 said:

i am not mixing any thing today aircraft are build as international products.

Even fighter aircraft.

F-16 was built in Europe, Turkey, Korea, Japan.

Why i ask you why? simple increase profits.

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China is doing things differently, for reasons the others here have been saying here. China may be using Russian engines now, but the trend is for it to use its own eventually. Even engines for civilian jets. The keyword is trend. China wants to master the building of an entire aviation industry with the same level of ability as the Russians and the Americans, the same way it is doing for its railway industry. You will have to accept a China drifting away to more independence, no matter how grudgingly.

MiG-29 said:

No the russian are not like that, specially official sources, what happens is you exagerate many times when they say they might buy into affirm they will buy, plus many times you can not believe things because it contradicts your beliefs system.
..........

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Yes, the Russian are like that. Their arms industry have a reputation of shooting off their mouths with no proof.

MiG-29 said:

Globalization does not fix borders, just interests.
Y-20 has russian engines, i wonder if Russia would stop selling Al-31s or D-30 what would happen to Chinese air force?
..........

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That's easy, PLAAF would get to use more of WS10/WS18 more & earlier while huge chunks of Russian arms industry would become bankrupt.
We've already seen this before, so there's no need to wonder. Russia played hard ball few years back & refused to sell IL76 & engines unless prices were increased. China told it to take a hike.
Now with Y20, WS10 etc going well, Russia comes back with tail between legs selling everything from Il76 to engines cheaply because they know if they don't sell, they'll end up not getting a cent.
As for PLAAF, they're just glad to pick up some bargains cheaply.