I guess we will see. Generally, kanwa interviews their Russian contacts very soon after a new Chinese system comes out. That's when the Russian contacts talk about how they helped China and what they think about platforms they didn't help.
China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft
- Thread starter Totoro
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I guess we will see. Generally, kanwa interviews their Russian contacts very soon after a new Chinese system comes out. That's when the Russian contacts talk about how they helped China and what they think about platforms they didn't help.
Schumacher
Senior Member
On the contrary, the Russians are known to say everything they don't know, and more, especially about Chinese programs.
When it comes to shooting off one's mouth to gain credits, none can control Russia, certainly not China.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
i will tell you why i guessed that.
C919, has many western sub-system, however if China had technically speaking equivalent sub-systems, they could build a Chinese version with only Chinese sub-systems in the same way MS-21 has one russian version with PD-14 engine and one Westernized version of MS-21 with western engine.
Now you might objetc the ARJ-21 and C-919 are civilian aircraft designe for export, however these jets are not being buy by western firms, however the reality they mostly buy by Chinese airliners.
Of course i am guessing, only time will tell
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
No the russian are not like that, specially official sources, what happens is you exagerate many times when they say they might buy into affirm they will buy, plus many times you can not believe things because it contradicts your beliefs system.
You expect China not to be help, however Russia indeed has cooperated in many Chinese programs and at any moment you hear Russia help in J-10, Z-10 or Y-20 you can not believe Russia could help China.
In a globalized world, every one cooperates and there is no pure domestic product these days.
MwRYum
Major
And you still sing praise to a trade system that doesn't universally apply to defense sector.
Because China is in nobody's bloc and is the enemy of the West, AND competitor of Russia. And in terms of co-op, things like what India and Russia are doing is, what China gets from Russia now are either normal buy-and-sell (for example, engines) or paid consultations - for the latter, Kanwa and Pinkov loved to paint China as cheated Russia for free consultation but seriously? Russians ain't that stupid.
So, what China got from Russia is no "help" or "co-op", but paid service...sure, throw in a percentage of espionage here and there but seriously, everybody does that.
And let me reiterate again: globalization in defense sector only applies to those who are in the same political bloc. China is excluded from all existing blocs, so they've to get things done themselves, one way or the other.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Globalization does not fix borders, just interests.
Y-20 has russian engines, i wonder if Russia would stop selling Al-31s or D-30 what would happen to Chinese air force?
You can see globlalization in Chinese aircraft programs, Cooperation with Russia and Ukraine in J-10, Z-10, JL-15, J-11, cooperation with Europe in airbus and Eurocopter aircraft build in China, with Canada with Bombardier, with US in B787, with Brazil in ERJ-145.
China is very well in depth in Globalization
what happens here people want to deny any foreign input.
China has chose the way of tech transfers by the west and Russia to China in exchange of sales by Sukhoi or Airbus in China.
ARJ-21 and C919 are also globalized products more in tune with the realities of the modern world.
Competition has being taken by these foreigners in two ways.
If China builds Y-20 for example, Russia is selling D-30s and making new engines, so they consider these sales will help their firms to upgrade and stil remain ahead of China in the world markets, that is the way also Airbus and Eurocopter think.
Others if they think China demands too much tech trasnfers, simply they move to other emerging marktes for design or manufacture.
Embraer for a while was pondering the manufacture of ERJ-145 in China was worthed and if it should remain due to the demands by the Chinese of tech transfers and hindrances to sales of Embraer aircraft, however the issue was solved and Brazil and China decided to build executive jets togather see
To date, Embraer has 154 firm orders from China market, with 116 aircraft already delivered. Embraer accounts for around 78% of China’s regional aviation market and is gaining strength in its executive segment with 18 firm orders for executive jets in the year 2011. The cooperation with AVIC on Legacy 600/650 program further consolidates Embraer’s presence in China’s executive aviation market.
Y-20 as such also is taken by Russian firms to milk China` treasury, the sale of D-30KP alledgedly for Il-76 owned by China, well at least 4 ended up in Y-20, and China just bought 190 of these engines for alledgedly Il-76s as two RD-93 ended up in J-31.
However cooperation is the way to go if you want sales
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Engineer
Major
Export potential does not make an aircraft a joint venture. For example, the C-17 has been exported, but the aircraft itself is not a joint venture. As an other example, the C-5 can be exported if Americans chose to, but there is no doubt that the aircraft is American. Going off tangent on your opinion of joint venture is not going to make the Y-20 an actual joint venture.
That is merely your opinion. The reality is completely opposite, and the fact is that using foreign suppliers cost Boeing three years of delays and billions in additional cost. Boeing ended up having to buy off many of those companies in order to get the project to move along. The 787 is an anti-example of joint venture, which debunks your notion about how cooperation definitely reduces cost.
No. They provide engines from a different continent partly out of politics and partly out of providing customers with choices.
MwRYum
Major
I begin to wonder whether you're sober or not under influence of narcotics when you typed those things...
First, for that one...now, the odds of Russia to default a signed-and-paid deal would be low unless there're terms and conditions included that'd bind what the engines are allowed to be used for...the biggest unknown would be when it's due for new negotiations for new purchases, Russia could very well set the price and delivery quota that's not favorable to the Chinese.
In that way, China will have no choice but to rely on the stocks at hand and accelerate domestic programmes for replacements, which in the short terms will undeniably affect the tempo of PLAAF & PLAN aviation which using those engines.
You're mixing the commercial programmes and military ones, you might fool the average Joe on the street but not us "SDF regulars" here. Everybody knows CAIC and its subsidiaries are making components for Boeing, Airbus and Eurocopter, even with the embargo still in force to this day after 1989 such business never stopped, and Chinese aviation industries managed to garner the badly needed modernization experience through these "outsourcing business opportunities".
Things get complicated when comes to weapons programmes. Other than things like engines which are obvious to spot, the foreign factors in various post-1990s Chinese weapons programmes are very difficult to confirm via independent and creditable sources, as everybody likes to take credit for it.
J-10A obviously have a special variant of the Al-31 engine; Z-10 have unknown input that for the past 2 decades credited to European and South African, and now Russia; JL-15 has obvious Yak-130 influence but to what extent is unknown, not until more official disclosure and close examinations in other airshows; J-11 deals comes as part of the package when importing Su-27, certainly something that generous won't be possible today but that was back in the 1990s, when Russia either cut a neat deal or starve to death...by the time of J-11B Chinese have "improved" upon it like they did with the MiG-21 into J-7.
And like I said before, Y-20 won't score much in the global market, nor it'd need be. Market for cargo jets that has rough field capability (that is, not like civilian jets that has strict demand for paved runways) is a niche one, those who has such demand would be rich enough to buy C-17, or Il-76/478 if on a pinch, as both have the advantage of logistics that China can't provide - China's market are those either too poor to afford even Russian goods, or blacklisted by the US. These banana states and rogue states don't have the budget or demand to justify a cargo jet the likes of Y-20. Y-20 is made to answer the demand of PLAAF and PLAN aviation.
The prima-delta problem everyone faces is funding - even amongst the Chinese they've to fight for funding, since government is the biggest pie in town the government deal always first and commercial second. Russia's problem is mostly "when the government deliver?" kind, so their companies and manufacturers have to rely on foreign investors...certainly they know what the Chinese are up to, so someone as gullible as the Indians come along with crates of hard currencies, that's god-sent for them.
I'm inclined to believe that the Indians realized that they got conned, but with US did left them dangling in the wind still fresh in their memory, Europe's either too expensive or too unstable an effort,and their local effort still mediocre at best, Russia is the better bet right now for them.
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Engineer
Major
Western companies' intent to reduce cost has nothing to do with China. Instead of jointly developing the IL-478 with Russia or An-70 with Ukraine, China spends a lot of money on developing the Y-20 instead. It doesn't stop there, as China spends even more money on developing the WS-20 to power the aircraft instead of letting Russia earn money for providing the engines. Spending more money is not the behavior of someone who's trying to reduce cost. Removing Russian engines is not a sign of cooperation.
An aircraft that will be full of western sub-systems means most of the profit will go back to western companies. It illustrates China has little to gain, contradicting your opinion that China has more to gain via joint ventures.
Not the same. P&W isn't replacing Frisa-made components with P&W components. Your own indicates Frisa is supplying components for long term, probably for as long as the Geared Turbofan™ engine is produced. China on the other hand, has not signed any agreement with Russian specifically on the Y-20. Not only that, China is also actively purging Russian engines from the Y-20, with Russian engines exist merely as a temporarily solution. What China is doing is the opposite of cooperation.
cn_habs
Junior Member
Yeah I agree with Engineer.
China as a sovereign country wants its main military hardware to be 100% indigenous for matters of national security whereas Western firms gladly outsource non-critical parts to China to minimize costs and maximize profits. It`s entirely two different things.
China as a sovereign country wants its main military hardware to be 100% indigenous for matters of national security whereas Western firms gladly outsource non-critical parts to China to minimize costs and maximize profits. It`s entirely two different things.
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