China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

Lion said:

Deino, I don't think antonov contributed much. In fact, Y-20 resemble more of C-17 echoed my sentiment. If antonov plays a large part, I tell you y-20 will look more of IL-76.

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Exactly I really don't understand why any Chinese success must be credited to foreigner. As if Chinese are genetically defective unable to invent new thing. Just certain inferiority feeling on some of the forummer here or vice versa superiority complex

Remember China is still subject to the most stringent technical embargo also known as ITAR

I mean certainly there is cooperation with Antonov but nobody know what is the extends of cooperation. As Crobato said long time ago It could be just design verification or peer review. But it doesn't in anyway diminish Chinese achievement

Certainly some of the component might be imported but that is normal No one can built each and every component by themselves It might not be wise or economical to do so.

After all China has designed and built J20 by themselves That is what wind tunnel and CFD, hundred of Phd are for you can simulate new configuration of plane and experiment with it without even building it.

Another thing is if AN 70 is such a super duper plane why I never heard of any export customer. As I remember correctly AN 70 has their own share of problem and snafu

Hendrik_2000 said:

Exactly I really don't understand why any Chinese success must be credited to foreigner. As if Chinese are genetically defective unable to invent new thing. Just certain inferiority feeling on some of the forummer here or vice versa superiority complex

I mean certainly there is cooperation with Antonov but nobody know what is the extends of cooperation. As Crobato said long time ago It could be just design verification or peer review.

Certainly some of the component might be imported but that is normal No one can built each and every component themselves It might not be wise or economical to do so.

After all China has designed and built J20 by themselves That is what wind tunnel and CFD, hundred of Phd are for you can simulate new configuration of plane and experiment with it without even building it

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Ask Pinkov and Kanwa, who many look up to as "insider source"...

But seriously, though, I won't be surprised if some of the component tech has input / aid from sources such as Antonov - US and Europe firms are out of the question, Tupolev or Ilyushin certainly won't do things that aid their competitor, and that leaves no other firms in the world that has experience in this field - but ultimately it's up to XAC and its parent CAIC to deal with all the other problems that put the whole thing together.

Antonov at the least would have probably been proofreading the blueprints.

Lion said:

Deino, I don't think antonov contributed much. In fact, Y-20 resemble more of C-17 echoed my sentiment. If antonov plays a large part, I tell you y-20 will look more of IL-76.

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Especially since Antonov builds the Ilyushin !????

Come on, we all know there si a close cooperation between Antonov and Xi'an in the co-development of the Y-9 - to be a much less demanding project - and given the close similarities to Antonov's own An-70 it is undeniable that Antonov at least did some assistance, consultations or simply "proof-reading" !

Given the An-70's mentioned problems, these are - surely if also techically - mostly related to Russia's unwilling to support a cooperation project with a "politically" unstable neighbur esp. after the Ukraine turned to the West follwoing the "Orange Revolution". Just check the times of events, right after these political turns, the Russian politicians and military turned to their "own" project, the Il-476 and nearely ceased all founding for the An-70.

As such with a proper founding that type would be already in service ... I'm sure of that.

Deino

Deino said:

Especially since Antonov builds the Ilyushin !????

Come on, we all know there si a close cooperation between Antonov and Xi'an in the co-development of the Y-9 - to be a much less demanding project - and given the close similarities to Antonov's own An-70 it is undeniable that Antonov at least did some assistance, consultations or simply "proof-reading" !

Given the An-70's mentioned problems, these are - surely if also techically - mostly related to Russia's unwilling to support a cooperation project with a "politically" unstable neighbur esp. after the Ukraine turned to the West follwoing the "Orange Revolution". Just check the times of events, right after these political turns, the Russian politicians and military turned to their "own" project, the Il-476 and nearely ceased all founding for the An-70.

As such with a proper founding that type would be already in service ... I'm sure of that.

Deino

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What close similarities between An-70 and Y-20, may I know?

Lion said:

What close similarities between An-70 and Y-20, may I know?

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The complete front section and several other details are much more similar to the An-70 than to the Il-76 ...

Besides that - and even if I'm a great enthusiast of China's independence, self-seliance, its progress and indigenous efforts - do You really think that Xi'an needs assistance to develop the Y-9 and only a few years later - regardless all reports and similarities - it is capable to delelop such an even more complex type from scratch alone without any assistance or consultation ??

I don't say that the Y-20 is a design from Antonov, but please don't deny the obvious things.

Deino

Deino said:

The complete front section and several other details are much more similar to the An-70 than to the Il-76 ...

Besides that - and even if I'm a great enthusiast of China's independence, self-seliance, its progress and indigenous efforts - do You really think that Xi'an needs assistance to develop the Y-9 and only a few years later - regardless all reports and similarities - it is capable to delelop such an even more complex type from scratch alone without any assistance or consultation ??

I don't say that the Y-20 is a design from Antonov, but please don't deny the obvious things.

Deino

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That's outright lie! I have compare the pictures and see none of the similarity between An-70 and Y20. The front section looks totally different. An-70 uses turbo prop and uses the traditional tail back section. I will say Y-20 looks more similar to C-17. Your Arguement is full of flaw. The one in denial is you. By your logic ,Y20 T-hook tail section looks very similiar to C-17. That means Boeing is also assisting Xi an too?

Y-9 is never a top priority project. It is understandable it slow speed in development. Probably C919 when successfully develop. You all going to claim antonov or Boeing is assisting which is totally laughable.

Lion said:

That's outright lie! I have compare the pictures and see none of the similarity between An-70 and Y20. The front section looks totally different. An-70 uses turbo prop and uses the traditional tail back section. I will say Y-20 looks more similar to C-17. Your Arguement is full of flaw. The one in denial is you. By your logic ,Y20 T-hook tail section looks very similiar to C-17. That means Boeing is also assisting Xi an too?

Y-9 is never a top priority project. It is understandable it slow speed in development. Probably C919 when successfully develop. You all going to claim antonov or Boeing is assisting which is totally laughable.

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Cool your jets Lion, Denio does not deserve such hostility.

There is no shame in accepting advice from those more experienced or knowledgable than yourself, the only shame would be if your pride stops you and you end up wasting valuable time and resources for nothing.

All the 'copying' allegations and loaded questions about how much foreign assistance posed by most western fanboys are just sour grapes and petty goading. But Denio is not that sort of person, and his comments are entirely reasonable.

I would much rather China took advice whenever it was available so they can make the very best possible product rather than let pride get the better if them and insist on doing everything themselves just so they can shut the Internet trolls up.

The issue has never been, and should never have been about whether China could design such a plane entirely on their own. Given enough time and money, China could easily accomplish such a task, and anyone who claims otherwise is just racist. However, since this is China's first attempt at something like this, it would not be unusual or unreasonable to use foreign help and experience. That is not to say China got foreigners to design the Y20 for them, but more likely share their experience on what design concepts work and which don't. It's all about minimising risk and development time.

In my view, getting some foreign help, even if it proves of limited use, and getting some stick from the usual trolls and have the Russians try and take more than their fair share of the credit is worth it if the help the Russians gave helped to save money, time or avoid design flaws that would require major design changes to fix.

Lion said:

That's outright lie! I have compare the pictures and see none of the similarity between An-70 and Y20. The front section looks totally different. An-70 uses turbo prop and uses the traditional tail back section. I will say Y-20 looks more similar to C-17. Your Arguement is full of flaw. The one in denial is you. By your logic ,Y20 T-hook tail section looks very similiar to C-17. That means Boeing is also assisting Xi an too?

Y-9 is never a top priority project. It is understandable it slow speed in development. Probably C919 when successfully develop. You all going to claim antonov or Boeing is assisting which is totally laughable.

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Sorry my friend, You compare a "drawing" of the Y-20 made, when that bird was still not seen with other images and call me I'm in the state of denial ? Sorry.

I did not meant that it is neither a copy of the An-70 nor does it need to pbe powered by the same engines, but look at special technical details (and the front section is only one oe these), there's much more resemblence to the An-70 than to the Il-76. And the fact alone that it has differences is more related to a different role - An-70 tactical transport, Y-20 strategic transport - and the possibility to refine the design. A similar tail is not a proof ... otherwise one could argue Airbus' A400M would be a clone of the C-17.

Don't get me wrong and I really don't want to diminish this archievement but to assume the Y-20 was developed alone from scratch without any help, assistance or nbot even the smallest amount of consultation especially with the well known close relations to Antonov is simply the "state of denial".

Deino

Deino said:

Sorry my friend, You compare a "drawing" of the Y-20 made, when that bird was still not seen with other images and call me I'm in the state of denial ? Sorry.

I did not meant that it is neither a copy of the An-70 nor does it need to pbe powered by the same engines, but look at special technical details (and the front section is only one oe these), there's much more resemblence to the An-70 than to the Il-76. And the fact alone that it has differences is more related to a different role - An-70 tactical transport, Y-20 strategic transport - and the possibility to refine the design. A similar tail is not a proof ... otherwise one could argue Airbus' A400M would be a clone of the C-17.

Don't get me wrong and I really don't want to diminish this archievement but to assume the Y-20 was developed alone from scratch without any help, assistance or nbot even the smallest amount of consultation especially with the well known close relations to Antonov is simply the "state of denial".

Deino

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I bet that kind of cosultation is not even worth any use. See how Y-20 turn out compare An-70. I seriously doubt antonov advise is any use. As for your similarity. Until now , i see no reason. Prove it or at least show pin point comparison, the front section which you mention bare no resemble. Talk is cheap. Prove it.

My illustration debunk your flaw! Everbody can see from the illustration, in fact Y-20 bear more resemble to USAF C-17. Why not you say boeing try to help Xi an build Y-20. It will sounds more rationale according to your similiarity.