China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Lion said:
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My illustration debunk your flaw! Everbody can see from the illustration, in fact Y-20 bear more resemble to USAF C-17.
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Your illustration is simply wrong ! ... and again just tell me why You deny the obvious cooperation with Antonov ? That's a fact and even if I can't show You an Ukrainian screw it is more than clear - like "plawolf" explained - that it would be utterly unwise not to use the know how or advice of a close partner.

Deino
 

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Lion

Senior Member
Deino said:
Your illustration is simply wrong ! ... and again just tell me why You deny the obvious cooperation with Antonov ? That's a fact and even if I can't show You an Ukrainian screw it is more than clear - like "plawolf" explained - that it would be utterly unwise not to use the know how or advice of a close partner.

Deino
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Prove instead of just saying wrong. Deino, you lost the arguement. Prove it. I say again! I can only see the clear obvious of cooperation between Xi an and Boeing by your logic. Just a front section and you want to convinvce us antonov an-70 and Y-20 share similiarity?

Then how about the fuselage, tail , wing? They get consultant from Boeing?
 
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delft

Brigadier
Y-20, in one respect or another resembles all of the other transports in Lions picture. No wonder, when you start the design of an aircraft you look at all similar aircraft and try to improve on all of them.
Aircraft have shape, structure, power plants &c. The Xian plant, that has been building Y-8 for a long time, has experience with the type of structure Antonov knows best. So Antonov with its vast experience with military transport aircraft and its close connections with Xian, is a valuable consultant, even if their own main project has been suffering from lack of resources.
 
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Lion

Senior Member
delft said:
Y-20, in one respect or another resembles all of the other transports in Lions picture. No wonder, when you start the design of an aircraft you look at all similar aircraft and try to improve on all of them.
Aircraft have shape, structure, power plants &c. The Xian plant, that has been building Y-8 for a long time, has experience with the type of structure Antonov knows best. So Antonov with its vast experience with military transport aircraft and its close connections with Xian, is a valuable consultant, even if their own main project has been suffering from lack of resources.
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But there is no proof and the very fact, Y-20 turns out look nothing resemble of any Antonov trait including their An-70.. Look at my illustration, ask from your heart. Does Y-20 looks anything worth of any advise from Antonov if their brainchild product is An-70?

Picture don't lie. If Y-20 needs consultant. It is Boeing. But everybody knows that's impossible. Y-20 is essentially a Chinese effort.
 
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flateric

Junior Member
Oh, Lion, then you probably can explain us what the hell Y-20 CFD image did at Antonov's booth at Aviasvit XXI in October 2010?

Y-20 AI - small.jpg

And why Antonov boss Kiva is lying?
At the 2011 Paris Air Show, Johnson reported that Antonov’s General Designer Dmitro Kiva “told the press that there are three areas of activity with the Chinese: the ARJ-21 regional jet [for which Antonov designed the wings], improvements to the Y-8F600, which is based on the old AN-12 design, and a cooperative development effort for a next-generation transport called Y-X.
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Gorthaur

New Member
Well, basically all the transports have at least some resemblance to each other. One starts planning trasporter by defining what kind of load it have to carry. That dictates the basics of the cargo carrying part. Then one tries to make the aerodynamics as effective as possible minding the needs of cargo part. And in the end one has to have engines to pull all that up in the air and as far as possible. Of course this is very crude simplification and understatement of the difficulties in planning effective transporter. Basic needs are the same though.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
PLEASE a bit larger and from the front !!! :p
 

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flateric

Junior Member
In 2006 Ukrainian officials noted they had been hired as consultants by X'ian Aircraft Design and Research Institute (603 Institute) to consult on large aircraft programs, to include the possible adaptation of Antonov's turbofan-powered An-70 for turbofan propulsion. Then in 2007 a Ukrainian official confirmed that images of a model of a Chinese four-turbofan military transport was another AVIC-1 design.

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flateric

Junior Member
Antonov worked with AVIC II as well, rigidly pushing An-70 and steroided turbofan-powered An-70-600 (which I guess was a loosing competitor from Shaanxi Aircraft Corporation) and then re-assigned forces to XAC, the winner
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Russia and Ukraine unveiled a decision in June 2000 to build a Chinese An-70 version with co-operation from China. The two nations jointly financed the development of An-70 in 2002 as part of a 50:50 risk sharing deal. The Chinese version was displayed at MAKS Air Show held in Russia in 2003. Russia, however, withdrew from the project in April 2006, due to financial crisis and rigid political relationships between Russia and Ukraine. China and Ukraine jointly built the An-70-600 in 2008.
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AVIC II, Antonov to design aircraft

Shaanxi Aircraft Industry (Group) Co and Ukraine-based Antonov agreed yesterday to design a freighter version of China-developed large aircraft, a senior company official said yesterday.

Shaanxi Aircraft, a subsidiary of China Aviation Industry Corporation II (AVIC II), and Antonov signed a framework agreement yesterday to set up a center in Beijing for the purpose by the end of this year.

"Part of the center's onus will be to design the freighter version of China's own large plane, which was listed as a priority project in the 11th Five-Year Plan (2006-10)," AVIC II Vice-President Liang Zhenhe said.

Shaanxi Aircraft will hold the controlling share in the joint venture, with the initial investment being about 10 million yuan ($1.29 million), said Ouyang Shaoxiu, vice-president of the company based in Northwest China's Shaanxi Province.

The center will need about 50 aircraft designers and engineers, with about half of the team coming from Shaanxi Aircraft's headquarters in Hanzhong, a city south of the capital Xi'an.

China plans to make large aircraft by 2020. Designing the aircraft will start during the 11th Five-Year Plan. Usually, large aircraft have a payload capacity of at least 100 tons, or about 200 seats for the passenger version.

The engineering center will also design light- and medium-sized transport aircraft and improve the existing Y-8, or Yun-8, turboprop transport plane, Liang said.

Shaanxi Aircraft specializes in designing and manufacturing transport aircraft both for military and civilian purposes. It has made more than 100 Y-8 aircraft in the past 40 years.

Antonov Aeronautical Scientific-Technical Complex (Antonov) is an aircraft manufacturing and services company specializing in transport planes and has made more than 20,000 of them, which are used in more than 40 countries.

Antonov started cooperation with China 50 years ago, giving a license to China to make its AN-2 single-engine biplanes, which are called Y-5 in China.

"The establishment of the engineering center is a strategic step for AVIC II toward expediting the development of civilian aircraft," said Liang. AVIC II agreed to the joint venture because of the air cargo industry's huge potential.

AVIC II has set up an aircraft engineering center with Airbus and AVIC I. Seventy percent of the joint venture, which will design up to 5 percent of the A350 airframe, is held by Airbus, with AVIC II and AVIC I holding 25 percent and 5 percent.

AVIC I and AVIC II both are State-owned aviation giants. AVIC II is the only entity making military and commercial helicopters in China.

(China Daily September 20, 2007)
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On 19 September 2007, SAC and Antonov signed an agreement to set up in Beijing an engineering centre to work on design of the Y-8F600 freighter, improvements to the existing Y-8 and SAIC Y-5, and two further cargo projects: a 30-ton standard freighter and a four-engined, 60-ton amphibious cargo transport. Antonov first cooperation with China dates back 60 years ago, with the AN-2 Colt aircraft, built in China as the Y-5 transport. "Part of the center's onus will be to design the freighter version of China's own large plane, which was listed as a priority project in the 11th Five-Year Plan (2006-10)," AVIC II Vice-President Liang Zhenhe said. Shaanxi Aircraft will hold the controlling share in the joint venture, with the initial investment being about 10 million yuan ($1.29 million).
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I don't think that Y-8F600 was "a priority project in the 11th Five-Year Plan", yes?
 
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Lion

Senior Member
So? How much antonov advise input did they put in on Y-20? everybody with eyes can see zero trait of antonov. If you tell me is Boeing, I will rather believe the latter.

Remember L-15, AVIC hongdu proudly admit paying a consultation to yakovlev as both yak trainer and L-15 bear great resemble. If the consultation advise is worth input. I am sure AVIC will include their effort as demonstrated by this case. Y-20, everybody can see Chinese decide to go their own effort despite the so call antonov advise. Even in interview, nothing of it is mention.
 
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