China's SCS Strategy Thread

[GhostEars]

In the wake of the latest PH fluvial shenanigans in the SCS, was rereading this two part series previously published in 2012, (

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) and

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, I would like to emphasize this line in part 2:

"Both protagonists are using us for their own ends. The US is using us to implement its “Pivot to Asia,” while China treats us like a whipping boy to demonstrate to the other Asean countries that America is an undependable ally."

I'm sure ASEAN is taking notes on the latest Chinese lecture.
Why choose a partner that has proven to be unreliable (and would stage insidious

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against your country)?

 

[Bellum_Romanum]

I don't want to be a wet blanket, and I'm not sure if some people here are being sarcastic, but I don't think we should be advocating for any kind of psychological warfare against the Sierra Madre garrison, or massive heavy-handed shows of force in general.

There are several reasons: (a) It doesn't really look good internationally, (b) It isn't really necessary, (c) It would in all likelihood inspire a sizable domestic pacifist movement that would inevitably spiral towards anti-CCP sentiments (and we know how these end), and (d) I personally would feel really bad if China resorted to similar tactics employed by the Western powers for the past 300 years.

Sizable pacifists movement? Where inside China? Are you serious?

Intentionally who gives a flying toss. China isn't breaking any norms or rules here. Before they took a more assertive action, they PASSED A LAW that permits their COAST GUARD to take the actions it took. If China was just some lawless country they didn't need to go through legal means in the first place. The fact that they did shows how sincere they are when taking the necessary steps under legal means.

You FEELING BAD is going to be just too bad you feel that way. Where were your feelings when China and Chinese people were essentially getting killed and trampled on by many both from within and without? F..k your feelings.

 

[valysre]

Where were your feelings when China and Chinese people were essentially getting killed and trampled on by many both from within and without?

I think we all remember 八国联军. And the many other invasions, incursions, and occupations from the Russians, Germans, British, Japanese, French, Italians, and Americans. But to be honest, of these eight offenders, the Americans were the least offensive. If we want to discuss historical grudges, America isn't very high on the list. You should really be going after the Japanese, the British, and the Russians. In that order.

Sizable pacifists movement? Where inside China? Are you serious?

You would be surprised to see how many Chinese citizens (mostly young city-dwellers) who blame deteriorating Sino-American relations on Xi, rather than on an America that is reacting very poorly to the upset of its global hegemony. There will absolutely be young people crying for peace if there is a serious conflict.

If China was just some lawless country they didn't need to go through legal means in the first place.

I would like to point out that everyone can pass laws allowing their military or coast guard or even citizens to do certain things when interacting with foreign nations. I would hardly say that passing a law to enable the use of force against a foreign nation qualifies as "legal means". As far as international relationships go, we all know there's no such thing as "law". Just as nobody gives a flying shit if an American intervention in Afghanistan was "supported by Congress" and therefore "took the necessary steps under legal means", nobody gives a flying shit if the CCG's actions in the SCS are "supported by the NPC" and therefore "taking the necessary steps under legal means". And I don't recall ever mentioning the legality of CCG's actions...

Before someone decides to call me an American stooge, I will make my position clear. The Chinese claim to the SCS islands was supported by the USA immediately following WW2. IIRC a USN destroyer carried RoC officials to each island to stake claim. The current Sierra Madre was beached deliberately by the Filipinos following a temporary RoC retreat from their post at the island due to an oncoming storm. In effect stealing the island from the RoC. The RoC, being a bunch of toothless losers, haven't really put up a fight about it. However, regardless of PRC or RoC government holding actual control, the historical precedence of the Chinese claim is clear.

 

[zgx09t]

I don't want to be a wet blanket, and I'm not sure if some people here are being sarcastic, but I don't think we should be advocating for any kind of psychological warfare against the Sierra Madre garrison, or massive heavy-handed shows of force in general.

There are several reasons: (a) It doesn't really look good internationally, (b) It isn't really necessary, (c) It would in all likelihood inspire a sizable domestic pacifist movement that would inevitably spiral towards anti-CCP sentiments (and we know how these end), and (d) I personally would feel really bad if China resorted to similar tactics employed by the Western powers for the past 300 years.

Why against psy war? It's a legit option on the table.
Of course, messages will be extremely polite starting every single sentence with the magic word "please".

Please if we speak louder can you understand more?
Please pack your shit and leave?

 

[tygyg1111]

I think we all remember 八国联军. And the many other invasions, incursions, and occupations from the Russians, Germans, British, Japanese, French, Italians, and Americans. But to be honest, of these eight offenders, the Americans were the least offensive. If we want to discuss historical grudges, America isn't very high on the list. You should really be going after the Japanese, the British, and the Russians. In that order.

We will f*ck up whoever offends our interests, anytime, anywhere. Also, America is the primary offender today. Who tf beats up grandpa Joe down the street because he stole your stuff when he was 16, when redneck Bo is pointing a shotgun at you right now? Redneck Bo is getting dropped first, then I'll deal with gramps.

You would be surprised to see how many Chinese citizens (mostly young city-dwellers) who blame deteriorating Sino-American relations on Xi, rather than on an America that is reacting very poorly to the upset of its global hegemony. There will absolutely be young people crying for peace if there is a serious conflict.

I am surprised at how low the number is. Actually, I'm not. Most Chinese have a clear, based view of the world, unlike you.
Most Chinese think like this:

How to put this... Your friends sound like losers who fail at life, like HK roaches. No wonder they're full of hatred - deep down they hate themselves the most.

My advice is to just leave them, you will not grow, learn or otherwise benefit from being around them - they are of no value to you.

I would like to point out that everyone can pass laws allowing their military or coast guard or even citizens to do certain things when interacting with foreign nations. I would hardly say that passing a law to enable the use of force against a foreign nation qualifies as "legal means". As far as international relationships go, we all know there's no such thing as "law". Just as nobody gives a flying shit if an American intervention in Afghanistan was "supported by Congress" and therefore "took the necessary steps under legal means", nobody gives a flying shit if the CCG's actions in the SCS are "supported by the NPC" and therefore "taking the necessary steps under legal means". And I don't recall ever mentioning the legality of CCG's actions...

When you have the worlds largest navy, you don't need to give a flying shit. We just ram 'em, and they come back screaming 朋友。However, acting without your own legal precedent is just a bad look that can be exploited by enemies for free.

Before someone decides to call me an American stooge, I will make my position clear. The Chinese claim to the SCS islands was supported by the USA immediately following WW2. IIRC a USN destroyer carried RoC officials to each island to stake claim. The current Sierra Madre was beached deliberately by the Filipinos following a temporary RoC retreat from their post at the island due to an oncoming storm. In effect stealing the island from the RoC. The RoC, being a bunch of toothless losers, haven't really put up a fight about it. However, regardless of PRC or RoC government holding actual control, the historical precedence of the Chinese claim is clear.

Refer to post:

"Soft power grows from the head of a utility axe"

Yes, claims and precedents can exist on paper, but unless you can enforce them, no one is going to give a sh*t.

 

[manqiangrexue]

I think we all remember 八国联军. And the many other invasions, incursions, and occupations from the Russians, Germans, British, Japanese, French, Italians, and Americans. But to be honest, of these eight offenders, the Americans were the least offensive. If we want to discuss historical grudges, America isn't very high on the list. You should really be going after the Japanese, the British, and the Russians. In that order.

Nobody really avenges history. Fires do not burn where there is no (more) fuel. Only countries that continue to provoke China are on China's list. History is only an excuse, hence, Russia, which has done a 180 and sided by China, would no longer be in China's corsshairs but the US, though they did not colonize China but actually aided us in WWII, is the highest on the list for their current antagonistic activities. Even Japan, which has committed crimes upon China unparalleled to any other country, if it bows and shows submission, can only be forgiven because in the world of international politics, nobody whacks their own dog just for history.

You would be surprised to see how many Chinese citizens (mostly young city-dwellers) who blame deteriorating Sino-American relations on Xi, rather than on an America that is reacting very poorly to the upset of its global hegemony. There will absolutely be young people crying for peace if there is a serious conflict.

Then let the real men fight and let them cry. If they need to be put down, then so be it, but such quality people are unlikely to amount to much. What good are they to China anyway?

I would like to point out that everyone can pass laws allowing their military or coast guard or even citizens to do certain things when interacting with foreign nations. I would hardly say that passing a law to enable the use of force against a foreign nation qualifies as "legal means". As far as international relationships go, we all know there's no such thing as "law". Just as nobody gives a flying shit if an American intervention in Afghanistan was "supported by Congress" and therefore "took the necessary steps under legal means", nobody gives a flying shit if the CCG's actions in the SCS are "supported by the NPC" and therefore "taking the necessary steps under legal means". And I don't recall ever mentioning the legality of CCG's actions...

Those who fight monsters are destined to become them. To some degree at least. We need be much more concerned about doing all we can to win the conflict with the US and the West rather than limiting ourselves for fear of resembling our enemies.

Before someone decides to call me an American stooge, I will make my position clear. The Chinese claim to the SCS islands was supported by the USA immediately following WW2. IIRC a USN destroyer carried RoC officials to each island to stake claim. The current Sierra Madre was beached deliberately by the Filipinos following a temporary RoC retreat from their post at the island due to an oncoming storm. In effect stealing the island from the RoC. The RoC, being a bunch of toothless losers, haven't really put up a fight about it. However, regardless of PRC or RoC government holding actual control, the historical precedence of the Chinese claim is clear.

Good

 

[tygyg1111]

An honest and frank appraisal of the PH military and the potential fate the country awaits if it goes ahead with it's quixotic pursuit of anti-China policies as an ancillary or extension to the American policy of containment.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804764761000976829

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804764765157568603

By using NavSOG the US were hoping that the scuffle would turn violent, resulting in the one sided massacre of the Filipino crews by the CCG, but not without the navy seals scoring a couple of kills against CCG staff.

They would then spin up NavSOG bravery to encourage more armed incursions

 

[valysre]

Nobody really avenges history.

This is a point that we must disagree on.

What good are they to China anyway?

What good they are isn't important. What's important is what danger they pose. There's still a dangerous idolization of the West in the Chinese youth that will rear its ugly head when push comes to shove. The danger should not be discounted. Internal discord has always been a key factor in external failure. 安史之乱 led to the collapse of Tang control of Central Asia. 秦桧's recall of 岳飞 (under the guise of buying peace with the Jurchen, no less) contributed to the Song's inability to recapture Kaifeng. 吳三桂 opening Shanhaiguan directly led to the barbaric Manchu takeover of China. History is littered with such examples. Time must be given to reduce the worship of the West amongst the youth before any serious action is taken. Lest a new generation of 汉奸s open up the gates to the enemy.

We need be much more concerned about doing all we can to win the conflict with the US and the West rather than limiting ourselves for fear of resembling our enemies.

Brutalizing half-trained Filipino fishermen does not help China achieve this goal. Or at least, not very much. As far as dealing with the Philippines goes, simply cut off Chinese investment into their "economy". We will see how long their stance can last. We know America today lacks the capability it once did in the times of the Marshall Plan to buy allies and prop up their economies.

I'm of the opinion that to punish a man, it's better to not feed him than it is to beat him. If you beat him, he engenders sympathy amongst bystanders. If you simply do not feed the vagrant, no one will begrudge you.

 

[manqiangrexue]

This is a point that we must disagree on.

How so? You believe that an allied nation should be suddenly attacked over what they did several decades ago?

What good they are isn't important. What's important is what danger they pose. There's still a dangerous idolization of the West in the Chinese youth that will rear its ugly head when push comes to shove. The danger should not be discounted. Internal discord has always been a key factor in external failure. 安史之乱 led to the collapse of Tang control of Central Asia. 秦桧's recall of 岳飞 (under the guise of buying peace with the Jurchen, no less) contributed to the Song's inability to recapture Kaifeng. 吳三桂 opening Shanhaiguan directly led to the barbaric Manchu takeover of China. History is littered with such examples. Time must be given to reduce the worship of the West amongst the youth before any serious action is taken. Lest a new generation of 汉奸s open up the gates to the enemy.

Like I said, those who idolize others against their own interests are not strong people. The strong fight for pride; the weak only "fight" when it seems easy. They should be dealt with with an iron fist and they will simmer down immediately. Chinese who idolize the West only do so because they think that historically, China is weak and the West is strong. Show them that China is strong, both internationally and to internal issues, and that the West backs down to China. And they will have no more resolve to be hanjian. As a matter of fact, when shown this, these shameless people will probably scream the loudest that they support China.

Brutalizing half-trained Filipino fishermen does not help China achieve this goal. Or at least, not very much.

We brutalize whom they send. That is how the conflict is fought; we do no back down because they send half-trained fishermen. But wait... these are supposedly special forces, right? LOL

As far as dealing with the Philippines goes, simply cut off Chinese investment into their "economy". We will see how long their stance can last. We know America today lacks the capability it once did in the times of the Marshall Plan to buy allies and prop up their economies.

Too long, too weak. Do we not move when they encroach on our territory? How do the Chinese people feel if we back down and they gloat only to make a deal months down the line for economic reasons?

I'm of the opinion that to punish a man, it's better to not feed him than it is to beat him. If you beat him, he engenders sympathy amongst bystanders. If you simply do not feed the vagrant, no one will begrudge you.

You beat him and then you do not feed him. Right now this deranged drunk hobo shit is trying to beat you. The West will make reasons out of thin air to begrudge you anyway. Best give them a real reason while you make gains on your interests than to do nothing and have them imagine reasons anyway. Always do what is best for China. Do not fear what others think of us; make others fear for what we think of them.

 

[blindsight]

Based on my own observation, most Chinese, who worship American system, power, values, and maybe anything, are of older generations. Younger generation of Chinese tend to be more confident and reasonable.